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Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by JonathanPrince, 11 Oct 2017.
What happened to the train?
Ran as empties up to Peterborough.
But a 'class365s style interior' does not provide the capacity required for trains running through the core.
They are suitable for an average journey time of about 30 minutes. For example, Bedford to St Pancras is about an hour on Thameslink but the average journey time on trains running those services is about half of that. The same will be true for Peterborough or Cambridge services that run through the core. A significant proportion of the journeys are between London and Steveage or Hitchin where journey times are typically 25-30 minutes.
I think when people can avoid alighting, walking and getting a second train, to go to places like Farringdon (for Crossrail) or London Bridge they will grow to like them even more. Especially as I'm sure a lot of people will alight at Finsbury Park or St Pancras, meaning that if you were standing before you will not be by then. For those going a long way south, there's little to no chance of having to stand the entire journey.
It could if it was done properly. Note I said style, not an exact copy of it. These trains will spend the majority of their time outside the core and their interior needs to be sympathetic to this too.
What constitutes "properly" out of interest?
As Ianno87 says depending on what your idea of 'properly' is, my view is that there are now two basic philosophies in outer suburban coach design:
1) provide adequate seating for most off-peak and shoulder time travellers with enhanced standing and circulation areas. This allows maximum passenger capacity and with walk-through gangways, enables passengers to better use space when platform distribution is not even.
2) provide maximum seating, which means 2+3 seats leaving a very cramped centre aisle. Also, the centre seats of the three are rarely fully occupied. So this solution gives less effective seating capapcity, very constrained standing room and virtually no opportunity for passengers to move along the train to reduce stress points during crush loading.The net result of 1) is that there is adequate time for boarding at even the most crowded stations and very large numbers can be quickly dispatched on their journeys. Whereas 2) may be convenient for those lucky enough to be boarding an empty train at the starting station, but down the line after a few stops, the standing room is rapidly filled and frequently, it gets so crowded that passengers are left behind, unable to board at all.
On the Thameslink route, the 319s and the 377s had 2+3 seating, narrow aisles and as traffic grew, got to the point of just not providing the required peak capacity for the line. The 387s were similar as they weren't quite so tight on standing room but there were less seats. In addition, the crush to board trains meant extended dwell times whilst passengers force their way onboard (or try and then give up). The only solution within an affordable infrastructure, was to provide the capacity needed now plus the expected increases during the life of the new rolling stock was to deploy stock designed as 1) above.
On the GN routes, passenger numbers may not yet be quite up to MML levels, but some here have posted about large scale housing develeoment along the lines that can only drive numbers up to those levels. Plus the need to have a common rolling stock design that is adequate for intense operation in the core.
This point about the centre seat rarely getting used is total rubbish. It may be the case on Thameslink but certainly isn’t on great northern.
Go on any 313 operated service in the peak and every seat is taken including the centre one. Same was true when the 317s and 321s operated the route. Please don’t spout such nonsense about it rarely getting used.
I will add I hope when the new trains come along (Moorgate branch) then they will have 2+2 seating so more people can physically board. The loss of 2 cabs will also help reduce the loss of 60 seats per 6 coach set. (Maybe a real loss of 44 seats as I am sure the cab areas could accommodate 8 seats each)
Extra space is a valid argument for going 2+2. The seat is rarely used when clear evidence can prove this is not true isn’t. If you don’t believe me travel on them.
As for the 700s I thought the biggest criticism of the seats was the cabling duct. Surely if the seats had a bit more space to the windows that would be solved and knees wouldn’t be in the gangway? No reduction in capacity but more comfortable for those lucky enough to get a seat.
Welwyn Garden City is about to get 1400 flats built next to the station. Yes, 1400. Sold almost exclusively to commuters I'd imagine. Even any affordable/social housing will likely be sublet (legally or not) as has happened elsewhere.
Knebworth is also getting three new developments next to the station, and no doubt countless more. Hatfield is also due to get its own fair share of new developments in the coming years.
Both Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield see reductions in their service as well.
Slower. (Fastest service now 20 minutes, come 2018 it will be 31)
Delay to any benefits at all of the core (if they ever happen).
Not much to look forward to for some of the busiest stations on the line.
My journeys on peak trains running on other routes (GEML, BML, SWML and LM WCML services), clearly differs from your GN lines experience. Of course neither of our claims about our experiences is 'clear evidence'.
I might agree about the ducting (which I suspect is structural in conjunction with the cantilevered seat design), could be inconvenient but to start redesigning the interior for such a small issue would be a recipe for disaster. Having experienced the class700s for nearly 18 months, I have frequently walked three or four cars through the train as it slows down for St Albans and knees hanging out into the gangway are the exception rather than the norm so the additional width given by the seating arrangement really does provide much more usable and safe standing room.
But the issue is they are not currently being used on short duration services, but services such as the 6.56 PBO to KGX where 90% of the customers are on the train for 45 minutes.
Fine if they were using the trains to only go as far as Stevenage, but unfortunately they are not.
The ducting isn't a small issue but a major inconvenience for anyone sat on the inside seats, as it means you cannot sit straight, and frankly whoever signed it off should be banned from ever being involved in any aspect of design work.
From the devils advocate point of view. I wonder if this was fed back and ignored on the mock up, or if people trying it out didnt comment as 2 minutes test a station is different to a long journey.
Personally not noticed the issue myself, BUT most my journeys are just 10 minutes long and London to Gatwick off peak at back of the train.
Perhaps the designers just thought that as many other Desiro UK EMUs have run around with similar ducting since introduction there was nothing to consider?
How many of these other Desiros have the seats crammed so tightly up against the wall?
The 350/2s and 450s perhaps - and guess which units have proved unpopular in their respective areas? One wonders if the Portsmouth line is getting the 442s partly as a response to this.
Having just realised this is the 'diagrams' sub-forum, perhaps the interior layout discussions could go back to the rolling stock thread, (where they've all been done before anyway)...
Would it be possible to be clear what this actually means as reading this thread its quite ambiguous what has been delayed and what has not.
e.g. is there a final May 2018 timetable yet agreed for GN for stations south of Stevenage?
Moreover what services will stop at Finsbury Park post May 2018 as that surely gives a gateway to the core for passengers between WGC and New Southgate. Losing the fast from WGC might impact the WGC passengers but for Hatfield and Potters Bar we don't have that luxury right now so avoiding KGX would be a bonus.
Where can I find the most accurate source on information for upcoming May 2018 changes? Where else are people getting information from if it isn't yet fact?
It maybe argued that this isn’t set in stone yet and local MPs are still lobbying. But it is fairly clear from GTR that it is fate accomplished and 3 of the busiest stations on the route will get a significantly worse service come May.
Will find the press release. But nothing through core for stations south of Stevenage until at least May 2019 (If ever)
Thanks but these timetables are confusing and wrong then as the MDE Services are still listed as running through the core.
So what is listed isn't right either way.
I would tolerate a change at Finsbury Park if there as a frequent stopping pattern from the some of the longer distance routes as this negates the need to change and walk from KGX over to STP.
It is hard to tell. I see you have gone to the timetable consultation thread so have seen the press release. But it is a pity they haven’t reissued the timetables.
We may find that during the off-peak the go through the core. Certainly what they have just released about late evening will see some WGC trains in the core.
Well that is one way to avoid these terrible trains; spend only 10 minutes on them and even then do it in first class.
Unfortunately due to the poor thought employed by GN, many people have to suffer them for 90 minutes a day. How on earth anyone thought they would be suitable for anything other than short metro use like yours is beyond belief.
Since it appears that most of the discussion above is 700 opinions, again...
Has anybody posted diagrams for Peterborough weekday departures? I’m interested in knowing what the 07:46 is booked as.
View attachment 40101
Yes there were posted in earlier post.
There is no attachment found at that link, what were you trying to post?
Post 23 on page 1 has the diagrams.
Thank you. If I am reading this correctly, the 07:33 is a 700. Pity that the 07:56 catches up to it at KGX anyway.
The diagrams will change on 12th February when some 8 cars will be introduced.. An extra 12 car is likely to be added before then too. As usual dates subject to change etc. etc.
Until then it’s just the two 12 cars from Peterborough to Kings Cross in the morning and return in the evening.
Any idea about which service the extra 12 car will run on, and the services the 8 cars in February?