Great Northern Class 700 diagrams?

[bramling]

I appreciate that, but if there's any increase in service frequency then hopefully there will be seats for those 51 people on other services (or the same, as other people use other trains). Once the new 2018 timetable is set, I guess we'll know the overall numbers.

If there are more seats per hour, nobody is really losing out. I am not referring to losing out as in the quality of the seats, ambience etc.

Time will tell, but it does remain to be seen how many extra seats will be provided at particular times.

The biggest issue will be where a 700/0 replaces a 2x365 (or, worse, 2x317 or 2x321) formation. It's already very conspicuous that at certain levels of loading 2x387 feels a *lot* more crowded than the same loading on 2x365. This may mean the difference between having someone sitting opposite or directly adjacent (which people generally don't like!), perhaps two people being able to sit together or not, or in worse cases the difference between getting a seat or not.

In the meantime, what will happen in May or December 2018 doesn't help people *now* who rightly expect seating levels to be maintained throughout the transition. If it's necessary to inflict the undesiros on people, how about finding a way to put some 700/1s on services which are currently 2x365, for example? Never know, people might actually appreciate the extra space and start to like the trains!

 

[jon0844]

A 387 looks crowded even when it's empty! At least a 700 is much more open and has more of a 365 (post face-lift) look to it.

 

[APUK002]

The 12 car off 1P05 0656 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P68 1812 KGX-PBO &
The 12 car off 1P49 0733 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P66 1742 KGX-PBO
when the diagrams were rehashed in May this was done for a reason.
There is also another 12 car off 1P07 which does 1P94 and returns to Hornsey, however that only needs a small alteration to balance the stock and you have 3 ready made diagrams for 700/1's!

Thanks for sharing diagrams , will these few diagrams be up until December timetable change the more?

 

[APUK002]

Does anyone npknow anything about the 717’s

 

[APUK002]

I wonder if rear first class will be declassified still on the 700 GN services.

 

[AM9]

I wonder if rear first class will be declassified still on the 700 GN services.

Difficult not to when both lines' services will pass through the core.

 

[jon0844]

Will they be announced as Great Northern services or Thameslink, even before they run through to the core and in fact terminate at King's Cross?

I assume Great Northern as they'll be on the GN timetables.

If so, I wonder if the CIS can say Great Northern or will just opt for 'This .. service' as on other trains? With the ThamesLink/ branding, it's going to be a little confusing for a while - but it could allow for first class to be in operation until they become actual Thameslink services.

 

[AM9]

Will they be announced as Great Northern services or Thameslink, even before they run through to the core and in fact terminate at King's Cross?

I assume Great Northern as they'll be on the GN timetables.

If so, I wonder if the CIS can say Great Northern or will just opt for 'This .. service' as on other trains? With the ThamesLink/ branding, it's going to be a little confusing for a while - but it could allow for first class to be in operation until they become actual Thameslink services.

The problem there would be on the BML. They will look like TL trains, sound like TL trains and go to London just like TL trains (many passengers from south of the river probably rarely go beyond London Bridge), - so why would they expect the rear 1st class rule to be different?
Unless of course GTR decide to deliberately try to catch people out!

 

[APUK002]

Hmm,INtrestkng. Pis /cis could be confusing for some as 700 are TL branded so expecting rear 1st to be declassed. I’m hopi g to spot or catch one of the 4 diagrams sometime to check them out.

 

[jon0844]

The problem there would be on the BML. They will look like TL trains, sound like TL trains and go to London just like TL trains (many passengers from south of the river probably rarely go beyond London Bridge), - so why would they expect the rear 1st class rule to be different?
Unless of course GTR decide to deliberately try to catch people out!

We really need GN to confirm either way, as once they start I expect some will automatically rush to the back. Indeed, if issued with a PF or worse, they'll claim it says Thameslink on the side and that TL has confirmed the rear is declassified. It also depends on whether the train will display that it's okay, or if that's tied to the individual diagram codes (in which case, once on GN they'll need to be set to show that).

 

[Hadders]

We really need GN to confirm either way, as once they start I expect some will automatically rush to the back. Indeed, if issued with a PF or worse, they'll claim it says Thameslink on the side and that TL has confirmed the rear is declassified. It also depends on whether the train will display that it's okay, or if that's tied to the individual diagram codes (in which case, once on GN they'll need to be set to show that).

We’re talking about GTR here, it’ll be the same as the debacle in 1st class as when the 387s were introduced...

 

[APUK002]

We really need GN to confirm either way, as once they start I expect some will automatically rush to the back. Indeed, if issued with a PF or worse, they'll claim it says Thameslink on the side and that TL has confirmed the rear is declassified. It also depends on whether the train will display that it's okay, or if that's tied to the individual diagram codes (in which case, once on GN they'll need to be set to show that).

Yes. But I’ve asked GN,and they don’t have the diagrams yet,but we do!?

 

[APUK002]

We’re talking about GTR here, it’ll be the same as the debacle in 1st class as when the 387s were introduced...

Lol,I rember that,rember TL is just a brand name name not the toc,so if TL say 700 rear declassified then same for GN (true?)

 

[bramling]

Lol,I rember that,rember TL is just a brand name name not the toc,so if TL say 700 rear declassified then same for GN (true?)

Not necessarily; they can do whatever they like where they like. So no guarantee there will be any declassified on GN at all (how will some people manage?!).

However, logic says something will have to give, especially on the 8 cars. As I posted before, having the country end declassified would make more sense on GN than the rear, but introduces complications in the future when/if services become mixed with TL, and also it would be the opposite of the 387s.

 

[bramling]

We’re talking about GTR here, it’ll be the same as the debacle in 1st class as when the 387s were introduced...

What really needs to happen is the 8 cars need to have the amount of first reduced. I don’t understand why they have so much - especially as we hear so much about how the trains allegedly *need* to be so high-capacity.

 

[Triumph]

The 12 car off 1P05 0656 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P68 1812 KGX-PBO &
The 12 car off 1P49 0733 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P66 1742 KGX-PBO

Can now confirm that the 2 diagrams I quoted above are starting on Monday 6th November. These will both be 700/1's

The 12 car off 1P05 0656 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P68 1812 KGX-PBO &
The 12 car off 1P49 0733 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P66 1742 KGX-PBO
when the diagrams were rehashed in May this was done for a reason.
There is also another 12 car off 1P07 which does 1P94 and returns to Hornsey, however that only needs a small alteration to balance the stock and you have 3 ready made diagrams for 700/1's!

I can now confirm that the 2 diagrams I quoted above will be the first 700/1's on the GN from Monday 6th Nov.

 

[Bishopstone]

I will be astounded if the rear isn't declassified.

Having one 'luxury' Standard class section conveniently allows moans about the general lack of Standard facilities to be batted away:

'You will find all these goodies in the rear coach.' (WiFi aside)

So far as the 700s are concerned, the genie of partial declassification is out of the bottle, and putting the stopper back in won't be palatable, politically.

 

[class387]

I will be astounded if the rear isn't declassified.

Having one 'luxury' Standard class section conveniently allows moans about the general lack of Standard facilities to be batted away:

'You will find all these goodies in the rear coach.' (WiFi aside)

So far as the 700s are concerned, the genie of partial declassification is out of the bottle, and putting the stopper back in won't be palatable, politically.

Agreed. I'm suprised they haven't thought to do a press release about it: "We have listened to your feedback and decided that the rear 1st Class compartment will be declassified for Standard Class passengers to be more comfortable" etc.

 

[bramling]

I will be astounded if the rear isn't declassified.

Having one 'luxury' Standard class section conveniently allows moans about the general lack of Standard facilities to be batted away:

'You will find all these goodies in the rear coach.' (WiFi aside)

So far as the 700s are concerned, the genie of partial declassification is out of the bottle, and putting the stopper back in won't be palatable, politically.

I really don't think folk will appreciate having to walk the entire length of a 12-car train at King's Cross to reach first class. Doesn't mean it won't happen though...

 

[Bishopstone]

I really don't think folk will appreciate having to walk the entire length of a 12-car train at King's Cross to reach first class. Doesn't mean it won't happen though...

Already a reality for Brighton first class ticket holders, and those who use the Holborn Viaduct entrance to City Thameslink (southbound), for example.

At least there is certainty with the 700s. The 319s would often turn-up with one or more unit of a sub-class that was Standard only, and if there was first class, it was usually in an entirely different position within the consist to that advertised on the platform train describers! Truly, it puts the angst about the location of first class on the GN 387s into perspective.

 

[jon0844]

At least the 387s are now all around the right way so that problem has gone. Since this happened, the screens no longer say where first class is. Given the screens don't tell you what type of train is coming, that must still lead to some angst - and quite possibly everyone hedging their bets by always standing near the front. At least the 700s won't change anything there.

 

[class387]

At least the 387s are now all around the right way so that problem has gone. Since this happened, the screens no longer say where first class is. Given the screens don't tell you what type of train is coming, that must still lead to some angst - and quite possibly everyone hedging their bets by always standing near the front. At least the 700s won't change anything there.

I think that all the 387s are now the wrong way round...

 

[bramling]

I think that all the 387s are now the wrong way round...

Yep. It worked a lot better on the units where the first was at the London end, apart from the not knowing which way round the train would be.

The isolated section of standard at the country end of a 387 was a very silly thing to manufacture on a train running from a terminus where the entrance is at the London end of the platform. Of course, even more suitable would have been first at the ends!

 

[bramling]

At least the 387s are now all around the right way so that problem has gone. Since this happened, the screens no longer say where first class is. Given the screens don't tell you what type of train is coming, that must still lead to some angst - and quite possibly everyone hedging their bets by always standing near the front. At least the 700s won't change anything there.

Just another example of Thameslink being a pain in the backside for its users, compared with GN which generally offers a much more civilised journey experience.

 

[sefton]

In the meantime, what will happen in May or December 2018 doesn't help people *now* who rightly expect seating levels to be maintained throughout the transition

Exactly. Changing the 6.56 means GN customers from St Neots will end up standing for 40 minutes.

This is a significant decrease in service when changing one of the 8 car services would have been a big improvement.

Mind you it shouldn't be a surprise, as when faced with two options GN always takes the one that is worse for the customer.

 

[Dunnyrail]

Yesterday I went to Wakefield from St.Neots traveliing on the 0915 from the nits. Ariving at Peterborough around 0935 my train was delayed by an Up Freight heading towards London. Turned out to be a Dollands Moore to Ferme Park? Weird route via Peterborough. Anyhow formation was definately a Mixed Freight consisting of Locomotive a few empty Bogie Bolsters 2 Vans sandwiching a brand new class 700 unit followed at the rear by a few Container Wagons with Boxes loaded on them. Would have made an interesting picture from well back say near the Offords. Any one else see this Freight?

Also noted in the new TL Sidings at Peterborough were 3 class 700 12 Car Sets, still there when I returned at around 1530. So we can finally say that the 700's have arrived on the GN. But they have been hanging around Hornsey for some time in various sidings on the Down Side plus more recently the Up Side and new Depot.
JonD

 

[Dunnyrail]

Yep. It worked a lot better on the units where the first was at the London end, apart from the not knowing which way round the train would be.

The isolated section of standard at the country end of a 387 was a very silly thing to manufacture on a train running from a terminus where the entrance is at the London end of the platform. Of course, even more suitable would have been first at the ends!

Well said that man, but it would appear on reading Modern Railways this Month that FC is of declining interest to London TOC's and Kahn in particular who all seam to be hell bent on stuffing as many bodies as possible Cattle Like into Trains. And don't get me on about their mealy mouthed talk of the environment when they cut out all new Tram Systems in London and think that BiMode DMU's are a good idea rather than Electrification.
JonD

 

[Kite159]

Yep. It worked a lot better on the units where the first was at the London end, apart from the not knowing which way round the train would be.

The isolated section of standard at the country end of a 387 was a very silly thing to manufacture on a train running from a terminus where the entrance is at the London end of the platform. Of course, even more suitable would have been first at the ends!

Was it originally designed to be first class in that section near the cab with the rest of the coach being standard class, hence there would be no marooned area of standard class?

 

[bramling]

Was it originally designed to be first class in that section near the cab with the rest of the coach being standard class, hence there would be no marooned area of standard class?

Yes, that's one theory, which is backed up by that being exactly how it is on the 5-car units found on Southern. Having said that, it is true that Bombardier plans do show the section at the inner end of the vehicle as being earmarked for potential first class.

It does seem that the sliding door and partition at its location was part of the design for the 5-car trains, and simply wasn't changed when 4-car versions were specified. If you kept the first at the driving end it would be too much for a 4-car train, especially one which already has less seating that what it replaced.

Mess is the word one is looking for!

 

[Bishopstone]

Yes, that's one theory, which is backed up by that being exactly how it is on the 5-car units found on Southern. Having said that, it is true that Bombardier plans do show the section at the inner end of the vehicle as being earmarked for potential first class.

Which 5-car units on Southern have first class adjacent to a cab?