Great Northern Class 700 diagrams?

[JonathanH]

This is a significant decrease in service when changing one of the 8 car services would have been a big improvement.

The problem with changing 8 car services is finding ones that use

Which 5-car units on Southern have first class adjacent to a cab?

None currently, but on some 377/6s, the first class antimacassars were put out in this area prior to the current arrangement where the area at the inner end of the 701xx coach is marked as first class.

 

[sefton]

The problem with changing 8 car services is finding ones that use

"ones that use..." what?

There are plenty of 8 car services that run to or from Peterborough that could do with changing to a 12 car (even if it is one of the new manky trains). So it is really dumb to swap an existing 12 for a 12 with fewer seats.

 

[JonathanH]

"ones that use..." what?

There are plenty of 8 car services that run to or from Peterborough that could do with changing to a 12 car (even if it is one of the new manky trains). So it is really dumb to swap an existing 12 for a 12 with fewer seats.

Sorry - should have finished with ...ones that use long enough platforms at Kings Cross for all their workings and/or split or don't then work back to the Cambridge line.

 

[Hadders]

There are plenty of 8 car services that run to or from Peterborough that could do with changing to a 12 car (even if it is one of the new manky trains). So it is really dumb to swap an existing 12 for a 12 with fewer seats.

My suspicion is that we won't see that much lengthening on the GN side. To be fair the 4-car services will get replaced by 8s which will be a big bonus off-peak and especially at weekends at stations like WGC and Hatfield but there are no 4-car services in the peak and so 12-car 700s will replace 12-car 365s (therefore fewer seats) and 8-car 700s replacing 8-car 365s (fewer seats also).

The only way we will see more seats in the peaks is if a 12-car 700 replaces an 8-car 365. I doubt there will be many of these given the majority of the 700s are 8-car.

 

[JonathanH]

My suspicion is that we won't see that much lengthening on the GN side. To be fair the 4-car services will get replaced by 8s which will be a big bonus off-peak and especially at weekends at stations like WGC and Hatfield but there are no 4-car services in the peak and so 12-car 700s will replace 12-car 365s (therefore fewer seats) and 8-car 700s replacing 8-car 365s (fewer seats also).

The only way we will see more seats in the peaks is if a 12-car 700 replaces an 8-car 365. I doubt there will be many of these given the majority of the 700s are 8-car.

The phase through to May 2018 is introductory and constrained by the space at Kings Cross together with current levels of splitting and joining services between the two routes.

Once May 2018 is reached, the through services from Peterborough to Gatwick and Cambridge to Brighton are 12-car and that is when there is additional capacity.

 

[Hadders]

The phase through to May 2018 is introductory and constrained by the space at Kings Cross together with current levels of splitting and joining services between the two routes.

Once May 2018 is reached, the through services from Peterborough to Gatwick and Cambridge to Brighton are 12-car and that is when there is additional capacity.

Post May 2018 how many extra seats will there be in the Peak? I’ve been asking this question for years and no-one’s managed to answer it yet.

My suspicion is fewer than now because the only possible increase can come from 12-car trains replacing 8s but I doubt there will be many of those as the majority of the 700s are 8-car.

 

[Bishopstone]

Post May 2018 how many extra seats will there be in the Peak? I’ve been asking this question for years and no-one’s managed to answer it yet.

My suspicion is fewer than now because the only possible increase can come from 12-car trains replacing 8s but I doubt there will be many of those as the majority of the 700s are 8-car.

Good luck in your pursuit of an answer.

We asked the same question in Sussex, and there was talk of additional services come 2018 to offset the reduced seating capacity of the 700s. The actuality seems to be that 'new' TL services through the core replace current Southern services to London termini.

However, given the timetable is changing wholesale, and the impact will vary at each station, there are enough variables for both sides to produce selective evidence and say 'told you so!'

 

[bramling]

The phase through to May 2018 is introductory and constrained by the space at Kings Cross together with current levels of splitting and joining services between the two routes.

Once May 2018 is reached, the through services from Peterborough to Gatwick and Cambridge to Brighton are 12-car and that is when there is additional capacity.

There is very little splitting and joining in the current timetable compared to the past. Plenty of 365 diagrams work as pairs all day. Likewise many GN services use platforms 0 to 8. It wouldn’t have been that hard to shuffle things to produce a couple of lengthened diagrams.

 

[Hadders]

When the new timetable comes in there won’t be any more trains - at least there won’t be from Stevenage as the line is already operating at capacity.

There is a large increase in capacity at Off peak times which is very welcome (but could’ve been achieved without trains with a bargain basement interior).

I still don’t know how many more seats there’ll be on Great Northern in the Peak...

 

[bramling]

When the new timetable comes in there won’t be any more trains - at least there won’t be from Stevenage as the line is already operating at capacity.

There is a large increase in capacity at Off peak times which is very welcome (but could’ve been achieved without trains with a bargain basement interior).

I still don’t know how many more seats there’ll be on Great Northern in the Peak...

This is the thing, the amount of extra peak capacity is heavily constrained by the line capacity, which is already at or close to that point. As you rightly say the majority of 700s are 8 cars. So we wait to see how much capacity will be delivered by 12 car undesiros, especially as one has to offset the reduction in seating.

Meanwhile I’m on an off-peak 2x365 (complete with immaculately clean tables!) as I write this, which is only about 20% loaded. There would have to be a *lot* of growth at some off-peak times before we really need 12 cars.

 

[Hadders]

I think the main benefit will be felt at weekends.

Meanwhile, I'm bracing myself for the 0736 on from Stevenage on Monday morning and 1742 return...

 

[Kite159]

I think the main benefit will be felt at weekends.

Meanwhile, I'm bracing myself for the 0736 on from Stevenage on Monday morning and 1742 return...

It has south of the river with RLU 700s on Sutton Loop & Sevenoaks services rather than a single 319 (with the odd double thrown in for good measure) running around at weekends.

 

[bramling]

I think the main benefit will be felt at weekends.

Meanwhile, I'm bracing myself for the 0736 on from Stevenage on Monday morning and 1742 return...

My thoughts and sympathies are with you...

 

[APUK002]

GN have confirmed the diagrams, 1st will be in operation at BOTH ends. The easement has been amended!

 

[Hadders]

GN have confirmed the diagrams, 1st will be in operation at BOTH ends. The easement has been amended!

Nothing like a bit of consistency...

I will report back on Monday.

 

[class387]

GN have confirmed the diagrams, 1st will be in operation at BOTH ends. The easement has been amended!

Any source for this? Is the rear still declassified on Thameslink services?

 

[bramling]

GN have confirmed the diagrams, 1st will be in operation at BOTH ends. The easement has been amended!

That is going to cause a lot of problems if 8-car 700s replace 8-car 365 workings. The loss of space/seating will be considerable. Not wonderful on the 12 cars either.

 

[jon0844]

Mind you it shouldn't be a surprise, as when faced with two options GN always takes the one that is worse for the customer.

GTR had no real say about the 700s.

Any source for this? Is the rear still declassified on Thameslink services?

I assume nothing changes for Thameslink, but this isn't a TL service - it's a GN one with a TL branded train (that's not going to confuse members of the public at all!).

I suppose it makes sense, but it would have made more sense if the trains were branded Great Northern until services start to run through the core, and passengers experience actual Thameslink advertised services.

 

[bramling]

GTR had no real say about the 700s.


I assume nothing changes for Thameslink, but this isn't a TL service - it's a GN one with a TL branded train (that's not going to confuse members of the public at all!).

I suppose it makes sense, but it would have made more sense if the trains were branded Great Northern until services start to run through the core, and passengers experience actual Thameslink advertised services.

... and actual Thameslink levels of performance.

The job was well up the wall this morning due to the OLE problems at Welwyn North, however by midday pretty much everything was back to normal and no one would have known any different. One wonders if things would have recovered so well with Thameslink involved?

 

[VoyagerMeridie]

GGN is getting class 700s for their routes to replace the class 365s that had a pointless refurbishment

 

[VoyagerMeridie]

GTR had no real say about the 700s.


I assume nothing changes for Thameslink, but this isn't a TL service - it's a GN one with a TL branded train (that's not going to confuse members of the public at all!).

I suppose it makes sense, but it would have made more sense if the trains were branded Great Northern until services start to run through the core, and passengers experience actual Thameslink advertised services.

well according they have been seen testing for the great northern routes

 

[jon0844]

There has been all sorts of testing, like 12 car trains stopping on 8 car platforms to test SDO, trains going through to the core...

I don't regard the 365 refresh as pointless because they will hopefully end up somewhere else, or even better we get a last second decision to keep them and potentially run more 12 car trains.

The 365s got their update quite some time ago, even if the CIS updates took a lot longer and some trains still have the old toilets.

 

[bramling]

There has been all sorts of testing, like 12 car trains stopping on 8 car platforms to test SDO, trains going through to the core...

I don't regard the 365 refresh as pointless because they will hopefully end up somewhere else, or even better we get a last second decision to keep them and potentially run more 12 car trains.

The 365s got their update quite some time ago, even if the CIS updates took a lot longer and some trains still have the old toilets.

A lot of the work on the 365s was either programme overhaul work, which the trains were due anyway, or work carried out by the leasing company to make them accessibility complaint (e.g. the revised seating layout, new toilets, etc). This work would have happened anyway, and the work carried out improves their re-use value to the leasing company. Agree that hopefully they will end up staying on GN.

Having said all that, some of the South Eastern 508s were overhauled in their final years, and ended up being scrapped. Doubt that will happen with the 365s though, I'd rather see a 700 scrapped.

 

[Ianno87]

When the new timetable comes in there won’t be any more trains - at least there won’t be from Stevenage as the line is already operating at capacity.

There is a large increase in capacity at Off peak times which is very welcome (but could’ve been achieved without trains with a bargain basement interior).

I still don’t know how many more seats there’ll be on Great Northern in the Peak...

Today, evening peak busiest hour from Kings Cross, GTR):
-2tph Peterborough fast (12-car)
-2tph Peterborough slow (12-car)
-2tph King's Lynn/Ely (12 car)
-2tph Cambridge slow (8-car)
-2tph Royston semi-fast (8-car)
-2tph Welwyn Garden City (6/8-car)

From the 2018 timetable consultation:
-2tph Peterborough fast
-2tph Horsham-Peterborough slow
-2tph King's Lynn/Ely
-2tph Brighton-Cambridge semi-fast
-2tph Maidstone-Cambridge slow
-2tph Baldock semi-fast
-2tph Sevenoaks-Welwyn GC

...I make that an extra two trains per hour in the evening peak hour.

 

[Hadders]

Today, evening peak busiest hour from Kings Cross, GTR):
-2tph Peterborough fast (12-car)
-2tph Peterborough slow (12-car)
-2tph King's Lynn/Ely (12 car)
-2tph Cambridge slow (8-car)
-2tph Royston semi-fast (8-car)
-2tph Welwyn Garden City (6/8-car)

From the 2018 timetable consultation:
-2tph Peterborough fast
-2tph Horsham-Peterborough slow
-2tph King's Lynn/Ely
-2tph Brighton-Cambridge semi-fast
-2tph Maidstone-Cambridge slow
-2tph Baldock semi-fast
-2tph Sevenoaks-Welwyn GC

...I make that an extra two trains per hour in the evening peak hour.

My analysis of the morning peak between Stevenage and London showed the same number of trains as we currently have. The evening peak is harder to analyse for Stevenage as we don't know what VTEC services will be calling as they have a number of services calling at Peterborough in the evening peak.

 

[bramling]

Today, evening peak busiest hour from Kings Cross, GTR):
-2tph Peterborough fast (12-car)
-2tph Peterborough slow (12-car)
-2tph King's Lynn/Ely (12 car)
-2tph Cambridge slow (8-car)
-2tph Royston semi-fast (8-car)
-2tph Welwyn Garden City (6/8-car)

From the 2018 timetable consultation:
-2tph Peterborough fast
-2tph Horsham-Peterborough slow
-2tph King's Lynn/Ely
-2tph Brighton-Cambridge semi-fast
-2tph Maidstone-Cambridge slow
-2tph Baldock semi-fast
-2tph Sevenoaks-Welwyn GC

...I make that an extra two trains per hour in the evening peak hour.

So no increase in tph for the Peterborough route at all, and on the Cambridge route this would equate to one additional tph during the high peak. We wait to see what the disposition will be between 8 and 12 car trains. All in all, it's barely an improvement at all by the looks of it.

 

[cle]

Reading a bit on wikipedia, I can't believe that Royston to Cambridge was unwired for 10 years! Seems bonkers but I suppose psychologically, Cambridge was a Liverpool Street 'place' in those days.

Didn't know about a Baldock terminator. And are any TL/GN Cambridge services running to Cambridge North (aside from the Kings Lynn ones)?

 

[jon0844]

So no increase in tph for the Peterborough route at all, and on the Cambridge route this would equate to one additional tph during the high peak. We wait to see what the disposition will be between 8 and 12 car trains. All in all, it's barely an improvement at all by the looks of it.

I know you want/deserve a chance of a seat but I'll keep repeating that the 700s bring extra capacity to move people as numbers grow.

Of course there needs to be an aspiration to squeeze more services in and run more 12 car trains where possible (perhaps 8 car 700s may be extended in future years as the coach numbers already imply it's pretty straightforward) but the core aim is to move people, and these trains will do that - even if having to stand.

 

[bramling]

I know you want/deserve a chance of a seat but I'll keep repeating that the 700s bring extra capacity to move people as numbers grow.

Of course there needs to be an aspiration to squeeze more services in and run more 12 car trains where possible (perhaps 8 car 700s may be extended in future years as the coach numbers already imply it's pretty straightforward) but the core aim is to move people, and these trains will do that - even if having to stand.

I will get a seat as I rarely travel at peak times, and if I decide I don't like the 700s (which I've more-or-less already decided, but I will give it a go as the prospect of lightly loaded 12-car off-peak trains does have a tiny amount of novelty appeal!) I've always got the option to drive; I've already been trialing this and have proved that I can already do the journey without having to leave the house any earlier.

I feel for those who simply don't have this choice. Quite simply, people don't want to stand, especially for longer journeys. It might be okay for a short hop from St Albans to St Pancras, which is roughly 20 minutes, but people won't be happy doing same from places like St Neots.

 

[Hadders]

I'm sure the trains themselves will become excellent units, my issue is with the interior layout.

I don't mind fewer seats per carriage so that more people can stand, what I do have an issue with is the narrow ironing board seats and lack of leg room given that some passengers will make journeys of more than an hour on these trains.

A 365 style interior would have avoided this issue and given the best of both worlds.