Great Northern Class 700 diagrams?

[Failed Unit]

I’d have thought the stock that forms the service would stable overnight in the sidings at Peterborough. Couldn’t they use a 365 from the same sidings (i.e the train that would’ve operated the service last week?)

I suspect the stock that formed it isn’t there anymore.

Let’s say the morning service is formed of the previous days 1742 London - Peterborough service they are stuck with whatever it was formed of the previous day. 2 weeks ago it would be the 365s. I don’t think the have anything spare.

Could be wrong but I think Peterborough just has what made it last night hence why in last weeks disruption the 700s were sent up ECs.

 

[bramling]

The 0736 from Stevenage is cancelled today, apparently due to a shortage of drivers.

That’s pathetic. Two services, and they can’t even get that right.

 

[bramling]

I’d have thought the stock that forms the service would stable overnight in the sidings at Peterborough. Couldn’t they use a 365 from the same sidings (i.e the train that would’ve operated the service last week?)

I don’t think anything stays spare at Peterborough. The only way to get something else onto the diagram would be when it comes out of Hornsey for the evening peak. Unless they run an extra ECS down from Hornsey at some point, or steal the stock off something else of course.

 

[Hadders]

I don’t think anything stays spare at Peterborough. The only way to get something else onto the diagram would be when it comes out of Hornsey for the evening peak. Unless they run an extra ECS down from Hornsey at some point, or steal the stock off something else of course.

Ok, I know train planning’s complicated but effectively they’ve got additional trains this week, the 365s that ran the service last week are still with GTR and haven’t gone off lease. Couldn’t this be stabled at Peterborough overnight to be available as cover?

 

[Failed Unit]

Ok, I know train planning’s complicated but effectively they’ve got additional trains this week, the 365s that ran the service last week are still with GTR and haven’t gone off lease. Couldn’t this be stabled at Peterborough overnight to be available as cover?

How long have you used GTR. Any other TOC probably but not them.

How long have they had the franchise and done nothing about weekend overcrowding? They don’t care about customers as the DFT has taken the revenue risk.

 

[SPADTrap]

That’s pathetic. Two services, and they can’t even get that right.

Their taxis didn't arrive from what I over heard at the station. There was drivers.

 

[bramling]

Their taxis didn't arrive from what I over heard at the station. There was drivers.

Thameslink already delivering its well-known unreliability to GN even before the pack of cards timetable comes in.

 

[bramling]

Ok, I know train planning’s complicated but effectively they’ve got additional trains this week, the 365s that ran the service last week are still with GTR and haven’t gone off lease. Couldn’t this be stabled at Peterborough overnight to be available as cover?

Don’t see why not. Providing maintenance was up to date and subject to someone being available to prep them. It wouldn’t have hurt as a contingency measure.

But remember we’re talking about the same setup where some think GN is “simple” and that putting first class over a motored bogie on the 387s gives first class passengers a more "peaceful" journey...

 

[A0wen]

If it’s Any Permitted yes (VTEC introduces some VTEC only fares earlier this year) but no VTEC services call at Stevenage in the morning Peak.

Correcting it - no Southbound Virgin services stop at Stevenage in the morning peak - there are northbounds heading to Leeds and York.

 

[Ianno87]

Thameslink already delivering its well-known unreliability to GN even before the pack of cards timetable comes in.

You've just been waiting for the first opportunity to say that, haven't you? Please change the record. The fact (I believe) its operated just fine* every other day this week goes unnoticed.

If it's true as another poster has suggested, how is a driver's taxi not turning up *anything* to do with Thameslink? GN famously always have drivers available for every train otherwise, of course...

*Fatality on Monday night excepted.

 

[bramling]

You've just been waiting for the first opportunity to say that, haven't you? Please change the record. The fact (I believe) its operated just fine* every other day this week goes unnoticed.

If it's true as another poster has suggested, how is a driver's taxi not turning up *anything* to do with Thameslink? GN famously always have drivers available for every train otherwise, of course...

*Fatality on Monday night excepted.

Operating just fine for four days out of five doesn't help the people who have every right to expect this key morning peak service to run every day of the week. If the arrangements are so fragile that a taxi not turning up causes the service to be cancelled then this is not acceptable.

Normally there's a thing called spare drivers who are rostered for the very reason that things don't always go to plan.

 

[jon0844]

I've been seeing the 700s passing by before Stevenage and they seem quite reasonably loaded. I am sure many are upset, especially those standing, but I wonder if enough people alight at Stevenage for those who stood from King's Cross to get a seat? Then it becomes those at Stevenage onwards that have to stand, but obviously for less time than from KGX?

 

[jon0844]

Normally there's a thing called spare drivers who are rostered for the very reason that things don't always go to plan.

But that is likely where there are currently problems until all drivers can drive them. That will therefore improve, and now they have more trains it could speed the process up?

 

[Ianno87]

Operating just fine for four days out of five doesn't help the people who have every right to expect this key morning peak service to run every day of the week. If the arrangements are so fragile that a taxi not turning up causes the service to be cancelled then this is not acceptable.

Normally there's a thing called spare drivers who are rostered for the very reason that things don't always go to plan.

There might not be as many spare drivers at the moment precisely becaue they're still being trained on the 700s! It's still not some kind of fundamental flaw with the Thameslink concept as you keep suggesting. Cancellation of (effectively) one train in a whole week does not disprove an entire concept with a defeatist attitude..

But I do agree, robust rostering of drivers will be essential to making the whole Thameslink proposition work. I would like to think that *somebody* in GTR is thinking about this before May!

 

[bramling]

There might not be as many spare drivers at the moment precisely becaue they're still being trained on the 700s! It's still not some kind of fundamental flaw with the Thameslink concept as you keep suggesting. Cancellation of (effectively) one train in a whole week does not disprove an entire concept with a defeatist attitude..

It just points to bad management. Issues with taxis, if indeed that was what happened, are very common indeed. In fact it's two trains shown to be cancelled due to crewing issues - so that's 100% within the control of the TOC. It's noticeable that every other service ran apart from the two class 700 workings.

Cancellation of peak services was *very* rare on GN before GTR came along. I can't imagine it's good PR for the whole setup if both GN's new trains have been brought to a stand because a taxi didn't turn up!

 

[jon0844]

Both ran fine this evening.

 

[bramling]

I've been seeing the 700s passing by before Stevenage and they seem quite reasonably loaded. I am sure many are upset, especially those standing, but I wonder if enough people alight at Stevenage for those who stood from King's Cross to get a seat? Then it becomes those at Stevenage onwards that have to stand, but obviously for less time than from KGX?

With the caveat that I don't recall having used the services in question, with 365s I'd be surprised if there was a massive amount of standing north of Stevenage. After Hitchin there would definitely be plenty of free seats. The undesiros may push more standing out to Hitchin, but unlikely to be more than that. The morning peak is a much bigger issue IME.

Politically speaking, however, standing from/to Hitchin would not go down well at all - users there generally aren't used to standing, especially away from non-stop services. Without opening up a debate on the rights or wrongs of the attitude, people haven't paid seven-figure sums for houses to stand twice a day for over half an hour.

 

[bramling]

Both ran fine this evening.

I can't help but make a hollow laugh at this .. it's as if running a timetabled train is some kind of big achievement for GTR, rather than their basic core function and reason for existence!

 

[bramling]

But that is likely where there are currently problems until all drivers can drive them. That will therefore improve, and now they have more trains it could speed the process up?

Whichever way one looks at things, it comes down to bad planning.

It's bad enough passengers having had to endure all the reliability issues with these trains, which thankfully/hopefully GN users may avoid the worst of if the trains are at last starting to settle down, however there's no excuse for crewing issues. If arrangements are/were that unrobust then they shouldn't have been put out, especially on important peak services. How many years have GTR and their partners had to plan?

 

[class387]

I thought you could use any TOC on an anytime or off peak return between London and Stevenage? Oh ok then.

Are the 700s going to be fixed to which side they are on (TL or GN) until the sort of mergey bit?

There are tickets that are VTEC only, but no tickets that are GN only. An Any Permitted ticket would allow you to travel on any operator.

 

[Hadders]

The following VTEC Only fares are available between Stevenage and Kings Cross (note not London Terminals) I've put the Any Permitted fares in brackets alongside.

Off Peak Day Single £12.90 (n/a)
Off Peak Day Return £14.90 (£16.80)
Anytime Day Single £13.50 (£14.20)
Anytime Day Return £19.00 (£21.30)
1st Anytime Day Single £20.00 (£22.80)
1st Anytime Day Return £29.90 (£34.10)

There are also the following Any Permitted fares for which there is no VTEC only equivalent:
1st Off Peak Day Return £26.05
Off Peak Return £27.20
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Single £11.20
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return £11.30

There are also the following Day Travelcards:

Off Peak £22.00 (24.60)
Anytime £28.00 (£30.80)
1st Anytime £45.00 (£47.40)

There is also a Weekend Super Off Peak Day Travelcard at £16.90

 

[APUK002]

There might not be as many spare drivers at the moment precisely becaue they're still being trained on the 700s! It's still not some kind of fundamental flaw with the Thameslink concept as you keep suggesting. Cancellation of (effectively) one train in a whole week does not disprove an entire concept with a defeatist attitude..

But I do agree, robust rostering of drivers will be essential to making the whole Thameslink proposition work. I would like to think that *somebody* in GTR is thinking about this before May!

Are all GN drivers going to be trained on the 700’s?

 

[otomous]

With the caveat that I don't recall having used the services in question, with 365s I'd be surprised if there was a massive amount of standing north of Stevenage. After Hitchin there would definitely be plenty of free seats. The undesiros may push more standing out to Hitchin, but unlikely to be more than that. The morning peak is a much bigger issue IME.

Politically speaking, however, standing from/to Hitchin would not go down well at all - users there generally aren't used to standing, especially away from non-stop services. Without opening up a debate on the rights or wrongs of the attitude, people haven't paid seven-figure sums for houses to stand twice a day for over half an hour.

The price they paid for their house is irrelevant. If they can afford 7 figures, they certainly had a choice as to where to live, unlike many other long distance commuters. No one forced them to live that far away. Their fare entitles them to their passage - just like everyone else who bought a ticket.

 

[Ianno87]

Whichever way one looks at things, it comes down to bad planning.

It's bad enough passengers having had to endure all the reliability issues with these trains, which thankfully/hopefully GN users may avoid the worst of if the trains are at last starting to settle down, however there's no excuse for crewing issues. If arrangements are/were that unrobust then they shouldn't have been put out, especially on important peak services. How many years have GTR and their partners had to plan?

The planning was perfectly robust. Lots of operators rely on a multitude of taxis every day

How exactly *do* you plan for a taxi not turning up? Book 5 taxis, just in case?!

 

[sefton]

Their fare entitles them to their passage - just like everyone else who bought a ticket.

Or alternatively they were under the impression their fare entitled them to receive a service from a company who actually plans their service around demand and the tickets they sell.

 

[jamieP]

The planning was perfectly robust. Lots of operators rely on a multitude of taxis every day

How exactly *do* you plan for a taxi not turning up? Book 5 taxis, just in case?!

They could have walked the 10 minutes to the Sidings where the 700s are stabled. Called another taxi company or used a black cab from the station....

 

[bramling]

The planning was perfectly robust. Lots of operators rely on a multitude of taxis every day

How exactly *do* you plan for a taxi not turning up? Book 5 taxis, just in case?!

If the planning was perfectly robust then the two services would have run.

If the taxi was bringing the crews in from another location, then spares should have been available at Peterborough. If no suitable staff were available then it certainly wasn't perfectly robust to be operating the class 700s. If it's a case of getting crews to the sidings at Peterborough (which I find a little far fetched as the Spital Sidings are only a short walk from the station) then they shouldn't be using these sidings if things can go wrong just because of a taxi problem.

Whichever way one looks at it, it's certainly not perfectly robust to have two important morning-peak up services cancelled. And of course it just *had* to be the class 700 services.

Getting crews to trains isn't rocket science. They've had how many years to plan for the class 700s?

 

[jamieP]

If the planning was perfectly robust then the two services would have run.

If the taxi was bringing the crews in from another location, then spares should have been available at Peterborough. If no suitable staff were available then it certainly wasn't perfectly robust to be operating the class 700s. If it's a case of getting crews to the sidings at Peterborough (which I find a little far fetched as the Spital Sidings are only a short walk from the station) then they shouldn't be using these sidings if things can go wrong just because of a taxi problem.

Whichever way one looks at it, it's certainly not perfectly robust to have two important morning-peak up services cancelled. And of course it just *had* to be the class 700 services.

Only Peterborough drivers sign the 700s and the yard. The taxis are to take the drivers from the signing on point behind Waitrose to Spital Sidings. Rest of the staff just walk up.

 

[Silver Cobra]

If it’s Any Permitted yes (VTEC introduces some VTEC only fares earlier this year) but no VTEC services call at Stevenage in the morning Peak.

Correcting it - no Southbound Virgin services stop at Stevenage in the morning peak - there are northbounds heading to Leeds and York.

Technically, there are two southbound VTEC services that stop at Stevenage during the morning peak: at 0858 (ex-Lincoln) and 0903 (ex-Leeds). However, as these services are right near the end of the peak, they're probably not that useful to most people heading into London from Stevenage, I imagine.

 

[sefton]

Only Peterborough drivers sign the 700s and the yard. The taxis are to take the drivers from the signing on point behind Waitrose to Spital Sidings. Rest of the staff just walk up.

If it is true that 1500+ people were significantly delayed on Friday for that rediculous reason, then words fail me.

Does nobody give a damn? Perhaps the penalties on the train companies need to be significantly increased.