Great Western Electrification Progress

[Railperf]

It al comes down to ££££££££'s. The electrification specification and train specification are linked to a budget. By limiting the acceleration rate, you reduce the required power draw from the overhead equipment, and that means you need a less expensive overhead system - fewer feeder stations and substations - which all keeps costs down. However, i must say the GWR electrification structures are so visually heavy gauge compared to anything I have ever seen, that you start to wonder whether the individuals that specified and approved such a system have shares in a steel company. This has to be one of the ugliest electrification schemes ever. The French LGV's have structures that cover 4 tracks, but nothing as visually unappealing as this. Even the parallel crossrail OLE structures are lighter and more visually appealing in design!!

 

[Railperf]

It wasn't possible within the speed limits no, but there are well-documented and verified accounts of HSTs sustaining speeds in excess of 135mph to achieve the seemingly impossible. If you've never heard of the '140 Club' just ask a retired Paddington driver!

I personally have timed a GWR HST (2+8, MTU engines) achieving Padd-Reading in 22 mins 30 secs, and ATP guarantees a max speed of 127mph. So I'm not surprised if 800s can achieve sub-20 min timings when the conditions suit.

I had two runs out of Paddington on the same day in good conditions. HST usually reaches 125mph around Werst Drayton, IET achieves 125mph before Southall. The time difference at West Drayton is 45 secs advantage to the IET. At that point it comes down to the driver and what he decides to do to keep to his schedule and the road ahead. If a clear run into Reading is possible , it will also come down to an individual driver's braking technique and confidence. Assuming that most drivers are more familiar with their HST's , but that IET has superior braking, you might assume that both trains would brake to a station stop in similar time. Once drivers become more familiar and confident with IET in different conditions, we should start to see better braking from IET over HSt. But assuming that will still take some time, i expect HST's to make the better station stop. So i have no idea where sub 20 minute Paddington to Reading journey times are going to come from!! And with drivers being expected to drive to schedule - coasting and using efficient driving techniques, and defensive braking / station approaches, i doubt, IET will ever exceed the fastest ever HST Paddington to Reading times set in the 1980's where it is well know that drivers exceeded 125mph by some margin and approached station stops at speeds which could never be replicated today, even if you wanted to, due to ATP and TPWS systems.

 

[swt_passenger]

...I doubt, IET will ever exceed the fastest ever HST Paddington to Reading times set in the 1980's where it is well know that drivers exceeded 125mph by some margin and approached station stops at speeds which could never be replicated today, even if you wanted to, due to ATP and TPWS systems.

Well summarised. The requirements of today's much safer railway take priority. Yet we'll probably always have people posting that everything should be as fast as in the past.

 

[D1009]

But 18 mins? Whose cider you on?

I'm glad someone else thought the same

 

[D1009]

I had two runs out of Paddington on the same day in good conditions. HST usually reaches 125mph around Werst Drayton, IET achieves 125mph before Southall. The time difference at West Drayton is 45 secs advantage to the IET. At that point it comes down to the driver and what he decides to do to keep to his schedule and the road ahead. If a clear run into Reading is possible , it will also come down to an individual driver's braking technique and confidence. Assuming that most drivers are more familiar with their HST's , but that IET has superior braking, you might assume that both trains would brake to a station stop in similar time. Once drivers become more familiar and confident with IET in different conditions, we should start to see better braking from IET over HSt. But assuming that will still take some time, i expect HST's to make the better station stop. So i have no idea where sub 20 minute Paddington to Reading journey times are going to come from!! And with drivers being expected to drive to schedule - coasting and using efficient driving techniques, and defensive braking / station approaches, i doubt, IET will ever exceed the fastest ever HST Paddington to Reading times set in the 1980's where it is well know that drivers exceeded 125mph by some margin and approached station stops at speeds which could never be replicated today, even if you wanted to, due to ATP and TPWS systems.

Thanks for that, I was trying to establish that sort of data myself, but trying to get a clear road between Reading and Swindon seems nigh on impossible. I was on the 1345 Paddington to Swansea on Friday, and we reached 112 mph by around Steventon at which point we caught up with the 1336 Padd to Cheltenham which would have still been accelerating from its Didcot stop. Checking on Real Time Trains it was only 2 mins late, and even if it had been on time it is almost certain we would have caught it when it slowed for the crossover into platform 3 at Swindon. If that working becomes an IET during 2018 we may get a better idea of the future.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It al comes down to ££££££££'s. The electrification specification and train specification are linked to a budget. By limiting the acceleration rate, you reduce the required power draw from the overhead equipment, and that means you need a less expensive overhead system - fewer feeder stations and substations - which all keeps costs down. However, i must say the GWR electrification structures are so visually heavy gauge compared to anything I have ever seen, that you start to wonder whether the individuals that specified and approved such a system have shares in a steel company. This has to be one of the ugliest electrification schemes ever. The French LGV's have structures that cover 4 tracks, but nothing as visually unappealing as this. Even the parallel crossrail OLE structures are lighter and more visually appealing in design!!

Sounds like you fully understand and sympathize with the "Save Goring Gap" pressure group?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Until the ERTMS and 140mph running comes in....

What's the latest on that by the way? (Can't see a thread on that)

 

[Mordac]

Until the ERTMS and 140mph running comes in....

What's the latest on that by the way? (Can't see a thread on that)

Pretty sure it's on the too difficult pile, although I'd love to be wrong.

 

[Railperf]

Sounds like you fully understand and sympathize with the "Save Goring Gap" pressure group?

I think I sympathise with anyone along the route that has to view that over engineered OLE equipment. I am shocked at how ugly and visually intrusive it is. Don't get me wrong. I am all for electrification and would go for OLE over 3rd rail every time, but something closer to the HS1 style structures would have been the ticket. I have a similar view about some of the over engineered structures on the GEML which are the same design.

 

[paul1609]

That's because as above, it wasn't possible. I recall the scheduled time to Reading in 1976 was 22 minutes, and it increased to 23 when the 2+8s came in. There have been several reports on the class 800 thread already of IETs arriving at Reading in less than 23 minutes, in fact the one run I've had from Paddington did it in 23 despite departing from the unelectrified platform 2 at Paddington, meaning we ran slowly as the pantographs were raised en route to Ladbroke Grove, and also a slightly restricted approach to platform 8 at Reading. Once it is electric all the way I'd have thought 22 mins easily possible once again.

Ebbsfleet Int to Ashford Int is timetabled for 19/20 mins for a 395 and is just over 3 miles shorter than Paddington to Reading 140 mph max/ 106 average. My experience is that the maximum a late running train can pull back is under a minute.

 

[Railperf]

Well summarised. The requirements of today's much safer railway take priority. Yet we'll probably always have people posting that everything should be as fast as in the past.

@swt_passenger It is a frustration to many that many rail services are slower than in the past, but sometimes we forget how much a part frequency plays in the overall journey time. Today 0- for example, there are several trains per hour from Reading to London with marginally slower tourney times - 25min vs 22min schedules - but a much higher frequency. This means if you miss a train, the next one is not too far behind. No point having one train per hour with a 15 minute journey time, because that means you just added another 1 hr 15 mins to your journey if you just miss your train. I'd rather have 4 trains per hour with a 25 minute journey, knowing that the worst case is a 15 minute wait if a miss my train and a 25 minute journey time - a saving of 35 mins over the former. It's all well and good dreaming of a 150mph GWML, but who is willing to pay increase fares for upgraded track, OLE, a new fleet of trains, and then the extra track maintenance, the cost of in-cab signalling, etc etc. Plus you create a huge speed gap, that you have to completely segregate the fasts from semi fasts - degrading the travel experience for suburban passengers and reducing that frequency of service. Or someone has to add to that huge bill to replace all your 90mph 166's with a 125mph to 140mph suburban Emu's so that semi-fasts can remain using the main lines.

 

[Railperf]

Ebbsfleet Int to Ashford Int is timetabled for 19/20 mins for a 395 and is just over 3 miles shorter than Paddington to Reading 140 mph max/ 106 average. My experience is that the maximum a late running train can pull back is under a minute.

Railway Performance Society - www.railperf.org.uk -record for Ebbsfleet to Ashford is 17min 38 sec for a 395, and 16min 47sec for 373. In the reverse direction is 15min 13 sec for 373, and 17 min 37sec for a 395.

 

[hassaanhc]

Some new twin track cantilever masts have appeared between the London end of Ealing Broadway and the District/Piccadilly lines bridge over the GWML. No doubt this is to replace headspans.

 

[Railperf]

Remember that prior to the Ladbroke Grove accident, the speed limit from pretty much the platform ends at Paddington was 80mph, rising to 100mph at Kensal Green. This was tailored to the HST acceleration graph, meaning a continuous notch 5 power application could be made from Royal Oak taking you right up to linespeed without break.

It is now 50mph to Kensal Green, which adds about 2 mins to the Paddington-Reading journey, additionally the running brake test is performed at 40mph rather than above 100mph which adds yet more time. Then allow for defensive / efficient driving techniques, and the extra Mk3 in the formations, ATP (and adherence to the 125mph limit!) and you can see why Padd-Reading in 18 mins can't possibly be achievable any more.

Looking at recorded data, i see that a 22min 30 sec journey time could be achieved with IET once under full electric power, while remaining within the speed limits and the more cautious braking approach used today. Todays services seem to take around 4 mins from passing Twyford to stopping at Reading. Whereas it is known that in the past as little as 3 mins has been achieved. If ghat were possible today, then a 21.5 minute time could be achieved, but is probably unlikely to be scheduled. Although the road through Reading has a higher through speed limit of 95mph, it isnt clear whether restrictive signalling causes drivers to adopt a similar approach as when there was a 50mph restriction through the station and extending some way either side of it.

 

[jyte]

Some new twin track cantilever masts have appeared between the London end of Ealing Broadway and the District/Piccadilly lines bridge over the GWML. No doubt this is to replace headspans.

On the main or relief? How many? Any chance of a picture? So many questions!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I

On the main or relief? How many? Any chance of a picture? So many questions!

If they were what I noticed today also, they are on the Down Main.
I was surprised how much work was still going on at the London end.

I counted 97 masts between Ebbw Jn and Marshfield.
There must be 8-9 miles of wires from Wootton Bassett towards Badminton.
Plenty of progress onwards to Bristol Parkway, but from there to Newport seems stuck with only about 20-odd between Patchway and the Severn Tunnel, and another 20-odd from STJ to Newport.


I was on a couple of IEP services today and was surprised the platforms at Bristol Parkway and Didcot were too short for the 10-car train.
People were asked to move out of coaches A and B to disembark.

 

[superkev]

I think I sympathise with anyone along the route that has to view that over engineered OLE equipment. I am shocked at how ugly and visually intrusive it is. Don't get me wrong. I am all for electrification and would go for OLE over 3rd rail every time, but something closer to the HS1 style structures would have been the ticket. I have a similar view about some of the over engineered structures on the GEML which are the same design.

This month's Modern Railways 'panup' mentions Denmark's electrification ordered 2015, 121km now live and of lightweight construction for 250km/hr with 5 pans up. Makes me weep.
Also see https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk...erhead-lines-contest-revealed/8662318.article.
K

 

[hassaanhc]

I
If they were what I noticed today also, they are on the Down Main.
I was surprised how much work was still going on at the London end.

I counted 97 masts between Ebbw Jn and Marshfield.
There must be 8-9 miles of wires from Wootton Bassett towards Badminton.
Plenty of progress onwards to Bristol Parkway, but from there to Newport seems stuck with only about 20-odd between Patchway and the Severn Tunnel, and another 20-odd from STJ to Newport.


I was on a couple of IEP services today and was surprised the platforms at Bristol Parkway and Didcot were too short for the 10-car train.
People were asked to move out of coaches A and B to disembark.

Yes they're by the Down Main, total about 7-10

 

[MarkyT]

Although the road through Reading has a higher through speed limit of 95mph, it isnt clear whether restrictive signalling causes drivers to adopt a similar approach as when there was a 50mph restriction through the station and extending some way either side of it.

I remember reading the 95 MPH restriction is a compromise figure to cater for typical traffic mix with optimal signal spacing and without very complex aspect sequences. The track is actually aligned for a greater through speed, possibly 125MPH, and ETCS cab signalling might eventually allow the maximum speed of the track geometry to be exploited if desired. Conventional signal with colour lights, if spaced and configured for this higher speed would have actually compromised capacity for most trains on the main lines today that typically stop at this major interchange.

 

[snowball]

Also see https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk...erhead-lines-contest-revealed/8662318.article.
K

If that RIBA competition is the one I remember, it seemed to be a bit of a joke - there don't seem to have been any realistic technical specs that entries had to comply with. Some of the entries were very "conceptual".

 

[paul1609]

Railway Performance Society - www.railperf.org.uk -record for Ebbsfleet to Ashford is 17min 38 sec for a 395, and 16min 47sec for 373. In the reverse direction is 15min 13 sec for 373, and 17 min 37sec for a 395.

Is that passing or start to stop?

 

[jopsuk]

Network Rail have put up a sped-up cab ride video, shot on October 10th, from Paddington to Swindon

 

[Sean Emmett]

Railway Performance Society - www.railperf.org.uk -record for Ebbsfleet to Ashford is 17min 38 sec for a 395, and 16min 47sec for 373. In the reverse direction is 15min 13 sec for 373, and 17 min 37sec for a 395.

Is that passing or start to stop?

Those are Start to stop times.

As far as GWML is concerned, yes there was a certain joie de vivre in the early days of HSTs which would not be tolerated today. I gather the RPS PAD - DID record of 30m 30s from 1981 left braking so late the first coach was off the end of the platform...

I have recorded 22m 26s PAD to RDG with IET and I have sight of another log in the same time. I reckon sub 22 mins will easily be possible with electrification throughout, especially if plat 9 is used at Reading and the starting signal has already been cleared. But those IETs do seem a bit fussy about exactly where they stop.

On the up from RDG to PAD I have recorded 24m 20s and seen another with 24m 19s. This ought to be reduced to well below 24 mins with full electrification.

And yes whilst the shortened TOTP special was through RDG in under 18 mins I haven't seen anything in under 20 on a service train.

 

[snowball]

Press release:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...otorway-will-be-closed-overnight-at-weekends/

Electrification to Bristol Parkway continues to progress as Network Rail will be upgrading the railway over the M4 motorway near junction 19 on successive weekends in November, as they install the overhead line equipment needed to run electric train services.


The upgrade, which forms part of Network Rail’s Railway Upgrade Plan, will take place overnight on the first two weekends in November and means an overnight closure of the M4 at Junction 19, near Bristol Parkway, will be necessary.

The upgrade involves the installation of four overhead line equipment structures which hold the wires needed for electric services to run. The decision to carry out the upgrade overnight has been taken to reduce disruption for passengers and drivers.

Once complete in late 2018 electrification will provide faster, greener, longer trains with more seats and greater comfort for passengers between London Paddington and Cardiff.

The M4 will be closed at Blue Bridge near junction 19 on the following dates:

• Friday 3 November at 11pm to Saturday 4 November at 7am.
• Saturday 4 November at 9pm to Sunday 5 November at 8am.
• Sunday 5 November at 10pm to Monday 6 November at 5am.

The closure will be repeated at the same times the following week on 10, 11 and 12 November.

Freddie Gleeson, scheme project manager for Network Rail, said: “The upgrade is absolutely vital and will bring significant passenger benefits once electrification is complete as we continue to deliver our Railway Upgrade Plan.

“We have chosen to carry out the work overnight and at weekends so we can minimise disruption. However, we apologise for any inconvenience caused.”

Railway upgrade work in Bristol during November will also affect train services to South Wales. Fans travelling to Cardiff for the Autumn International rugby matches are advised to plan their journey at www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Press release:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...otorway-will-be-closed-overnight-at-weekends/

I was amused yesterday to see that the short bridge sections of the elevated GW route between Bristol Parkway and Chipping Sodbury had been equipped with heritage-type OHLE masts (smaller round-section), similar to those used over the Thames (eg where the GW route crosses the old Midland route).
However, the adjacent embankments, which are just as visible in the landscape, had the usual huge brutalist square-section Series 1 masts.
I did also notice that a small proportion, maybe 10%, of the 2-track route west of Didcot has smaller, simpler masts than used on the 4-track sections.
So there is some reduction in scale of steelwork, but nothing like the typical Mk3b installation on 2-track routes (ie that without headspans).

 

[Banana]

Network Rail have put up a sped-up cab ride video, shot on October 10th, from Paddington to Swindon

That cantry looks so over-engineered to this amateur (compared to the WCML). Is it windy in the west?

 

[HowardGWR]

That gantry looks so over-engineered to this amateur (compared to the WCML). Is it windy in the west?

Yes, it is certainly on that viaduct at Winterbourne and it would not surprise me if that comes back to haunt whoever decided to use a flimsier design there. Once you climb up to Filton from the centre of Bristol, you freeze in winter, as all those who work near the airfield and Cribbs causeway know.

 

[Banana]

Yes, it is certainly on that viaduct at Winterbourne and it would not surprise me if that comes back to haunt whoever decided to use a flimsier design there. Once you climb up to Filton from the centre of Bristol, you freeze in winter, as all those who work near the airfield and Cribbs causeway know.

Bristol is not in the video....non?

 

[mic505]

No. According to the latest Modern Railways magazine Network Rail found faults during testing on 14/15 October.

 

[Pete_uk]

That cantry looks so over-engineered to this amateur (compared to the WCML). Is it windy in the west?

Most of the wind comes from West to East, so the further East you go the less intense it should get! But I must admit the masts and horizontal bits are built like brick out houses.

Incidentally, that's why Heathrow has its runways East-West.