Great Western Electrification Progress

[Tom Quinne]

Regards the Valleys side of Cardiff Central Platforms 6/7 and 8, there will be no OHL from Cardiff Queen Street through Cardiff Central to Ninian Park.

Only Platforms 0/1/2/3/4 will be wired as far as Cardiff West Junction, and Line E, Line A and Brickyard sidings to allow 800 & 387 turnbacks.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Going a little off topic.. but I'm all for local lines,which branch off the main network and only have one contact point like the valley lines mainly do, being handed over to local authorities to manage and maintain should they so wish. As long as they can get that handover smooth. It allows them to do a lot more with the system like light rail.

Getting back on topic I agree it is rather silly to not even have the long boom over both tracks so that at least platform 6 has some steel work ready.
I also noticed there seems to be no provisions for electrifying the freight line between platform 2 and 3, am I right in saying that other places do? Like the line behind platform 1 at Swindon. Bit of a missed opportunity really.

Line C & D (Centre Roads) will be wired as far as Cardiff West Junction.

 

[article17_gdpr]

Line C & D (Centre Roads) will be wired as far as Cardiff West Junction.

Oh I noticed earlier they didn't have the large beams (don't know the terminology) across to platform 3. They one have short arms coming off of 2 and 3.

 

[Linda smith]

Oh I noticed earlier they didn't have the large beams (don't know the terminology) across to platform 3. They one have short arms coming off of 2 and 3.

Yea, I was watching a recent video from Cardiff station & both p3 & p4 have had booms fitted. Although several portals are now institu on the queen street side. The video seemed to throw that all roads to the canton depot is still waiting for masts etc to be installed

 

[Tom Quinne]

TfW haven’t ordered any pure electric trains so there isn’t a requirement to wire into Canton. Core Valleys Lines extended to a point just beyond the incline from Central upto Queen Street, and just beyond the Ninian Park.

The centre roads at Cardiff Central have the single boom with twin support registration arms save the massive four track beams like at Newport and at other parts of Cardiff area.

The electrical control room will now be at Thames Valley Signalling Centre, and not a new room at South Wales Signalling Centre as was the plan when full fat scheme was announced all those years ago.

 

[Dai Corner]

TfW haven’t ordered any pure electric trains so there isn’t a requirement to wire into Canton. Core Valleys Lines extended to a point just beyond the incline from Central upto Queen Street, and just beyond the Ninian Park.

The centre roads at Cardiff Central have the single boom with twin support registration arms save the massive four track beams like at Newport and at other parts of Cardiff area.

The electrical control room will now be at Thames Valley Signalling Centre, and not a new room at South Wales Signalling Centre as was the plan when full fat scheme was announced all those years ago.

Do you know how power is getting to the Valley Lines Tom? Presumably a lineside cable through the 'Cardiff Gap' ?

 

[PaulHarding150]

If TfW/WG don't electricity the section between Cardiff Queen Street and the Canton Depot, every argument they have against the Tory UK Government for not electrifying the mainline between Cardiff and Swansea will be undone.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Do you know how power is getting to the Valley Lines Tom? Presumably a lineside cable through the 'Cardiff Gap' ?

I think there’ll be a feeder at the Taff Wells Depot site id assume. Signalling and control functions will be based there, so I’d assume it would make sense to have electrical control and supply there as well.

 

[Tom Quinne]

If TfW/WG don't electricity the section between Cardiff Queen Street and the Canton Depot, every argument they have against the Tory UK Government for not electrifying the mainline between Cardiff and Swansea will be undone.

None of the mainline units will have power collection equipment as there won’t be enough OHL east of Newport to make it with while, a lost opportunity I think personally.

 

[Envoy]

None of the mainline units will have power collection equipment as there won’t be enough OHL east of Newport to make it with while, a lost opportunity I think personally.

Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff is being electrified and Transport for Wales services between Cheltenham and south Wales could have used the overhead wires. Had the GWR mainline electrification continued to Swansea, it might even had made sense for the new trains that TfW have ordered for the west Wales to Manchester service to be bi-mode. That would have further justified the cost of electrifying to Swansea as such trains could also have used the overhead lines between Crewe and Manchester. The stopping trains on the south Wales mainline could have been all electric thus giving much faster acceleration between the frequent stops and creating more capacity.

So, with all this talk about air pollution and climate change, we are indeed seeing missed opportunities in south Wales to get more services over to electric traction. The idea that the valley trains will not have overhead power between Queen Street and Ninian Park I find rather irrational - especially as there are no over bridges to shift.The Flirts - that will be used on the Rhymney Valley to Penarth & Barry/Rhoose routes will have to go through the busiest station (Cardiff Central) on diesel power - thus creating bad air quality for all the people on the platforms. At least the others on the Core Valley services will be on battery power.

 

[JN114]

While we’re at risk of drifting further off the topic of GW Electrification (South Wales Metro / Valley Lines is very much a separate project) - is the intended system for Valley Lines actually 25kV, or is it lower voltage for tram-trains? In which case it’s entirely plausible that 6/7/8 aren’t electrified as it won’t be a compatible system with the 25kV system in use on GW.

 

[article17_gdpr]

While we’re at risk of drifting further off the topic of GW Electrification (South Wales Metro / Valley Lines is very much a separate project) - is the intended system for Valley Lines actually 25kV, or is it lower voltage for tram-trains? In which case it’s entirely plausible that 6/7/8 aren’t electrified as it won’t be a compatible system with the 25kV system in use on GW.

I'm sure it's 25kV as stated in here. https://www.metro-report.com/news/single-view/view/south-wales-metro-plans-announced.html

 

[Tom Quinne]

While we’re at risk of drifting further off the topic of GW Electrification (South Wales Metro / Valley Lines is very much a separate project) - is the intended system for Valley Lines actually 25kV, or is it lower voltage for tram-trains? In which case it’s entirely plausible that 6/7/8 aren’t electrified as it won’t be a compatible system with the 25kV system in use on GW.

Standard 25Kv as per the mainline, yes.
The bay train/tram will be non overhead with batteries onboard for the sections north of Bargoed and south of Queen Street.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I'm pretty sure it's 25kV as they're getting 769 flex trains initially which work with the 25kV.

Flex goes off lease once the new fleets are in place, well at the moment anyway.

 

[article17_gdpr]

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[Brissle Girl]

As I understand it, they will simply be used as extra diesel units that are available quickly (or at least that was the expectation). There’s never been any intention of using the 25kv capability.

 

[Linda smith]

Anyway, to get back on topic, since last week there has been some progress from undy to Newport. This includes some earth wire being installed on the down relief. With reference to this weekend's possession, it only effects the Severn tunnel itself. This is resulting in diverts through to Gloucester this weekend. Also equipment seems to be moving closer to Newport now, as I assume that they will be looking to lift further masts and booms / portals in the undy and magor area soon. This would finally close that gap & allow for further weeknight installation to progress towards Newport.

 

[Tom Quinne]

The plan is still on course to energise Patchway to St Brides, then St Brides to Cardiff Central over two stages during November.

Foundations are approx 98% complete.
SPS approx 78%
Wires approx 35%

 

[stj]

Wires are now up by the Vets in Undy towards Magor.

 

[Linda smith]

Wires are now up by the Vets in Undy towards Magor.

The earth wires extend from a gap just after the major bridge to llandevenny village on the down relief . On the up main, there is one run of earth from the Bishton flyover, up to the same point. Today they were also installing registration arms on the portals over the down roads into the station.

 

[Linda smith]

The earth wires extend from a gap just after the major bridge to llandevenny village on the down relief . On the up main, there is one run of earth from the Bishton flyover, up to the same point. Today they were also installing registration arms on the portals over the down roads into the station.

 

[Cardiff123]

You’d think so wouldn’t you? It’s really depressing the lack of communication and joined up work between the two governments and/or Network Rail.

The two governments in Wales and London despise each other. Getting Alun Cairns to cooperate with Welsh Govt and do anything for the benefit of Wales is literally impossible. He's opposed every major infrastructure project put on the table for Wales since he took over as Secretary of State. At least you got the feeling with the previous Sec of State, Stephen Crabb, that he was at least trying to mediate on issues like the funding of the Valley lines electrification when the row broke out between the two govts about that in 2014.

If TfW/WG don't electricity the section between Cardiff Queen Street and the Canton Depot, every argument they have against the Tory UK Government for not electrifying the mainline between Cardiff and Swansea will be undone.

TfW's argument will be that it's not allowed to touch Ninian Park - Queen St as it's Network Rail owned infrastructure. TfW/Keolis Amey are only electrifying infrastructure that is being passed into Welsh Govt ownership, the boundaries of which 'Tom Quinne' has pointed out.

 

[edwin_m]

TfW's argument will be that it's not allowed to touch Ninian Park - Queen St as it's Network Rail owned infrastructure. TfW/Keolis Amey are only electrifying infrastructure that is being passed into Welsh Govt ownership, the boundaries of which 'Tom Quinne' has pointed out.

It's not forbidden, and indeed Modern Railways comments that some of the contractors working on CVL may also deliver enhancements on NR infrastructure. But WG's experience is that getting NR to do anything is fraught with problems, so any proposal that reduced the amount of work on the NR side of the boundary would be favourably looked upon.

 

[PaulHarding150]

The two governments in Wales and London despise each other. Getting Alun Cairns to cooperate with Welsh Govt and do anything for the benefit of Wales is literally impossible. He's opposed every major infrastructure project put on the table for Wales since he took over as Secretary of State. At least you got the feeling with the previous Sec of State, Stephen Crabb, that he was at least trying to mediate on issues like the funding of the Valley lines electrification when the row broke out between the two govts about that in 2014.

I know that Alun Cairns is not the most popular politician and The Plaid and Labour twitterarty are doing a wonderful job of attacking him, but I think the relationship issues between the two governments go well beyond the individual secretary of state.

TfW's argument will be that it's not allowed to touch Ninian Park - Queen St as it's Network Rail owned infrastructure. TfW/Keolis Amey are only electrifying infrastructure that is being passed into Welsh Govt ownership, the boundaries of which 'Tom Quinne' has pointed out.

Well someone messed up deciding where the boundary should be.

If the boundary is Queen Street, what dos that mean for The Cardiff Bay line?

I know there needs to be a line on the map etc, but why is the line at Queen Street not at Central, given every train from Platforms 7&8 go to Queen Street and vica versa,

It's not forbidden, and indeed Modern Railways comments that some of the contractors working on CVL may also deliver enhancements on NR infrastructure. But WG's experience is that getting NR to do anything is fraught with problems, so any proposal that reduced the amount of work on the NR side of the boundary would be favourably looked upon.

It could be done, but we're seeing a combination of the WG doing things on the cheap and not looking long term.

 

[Tom Quinne]

The TfW/NWR boundary is just south of Queen Street so takes in the Bay, with the City Line end just beyond Ninian Park South Junction.

If the line from Queen Street through go Ninian was all TfW it would mean crossing TfW “property” every time we had a diversion down the Vale of Glamorgan.

 

[PaulHarding150]

If the line from Queen Street through go Ninian was all TfW it would mean crossing TfW “property” every time we had a diversion down the Vale of Glamorgan.

So?

You've identified a problem, it's not hard to identify a solution. Work together.

 

[Tom Quinne]

When added a dot to a undotted I on the railway costs several million pounds, I think the proposed plan works.

 

[Tom Quinne]

So?

You've identified a problem, it's not hard to identify a solution. Work together.

The way the boundary will be marked is blindly straight forward - plain line ie, no points. NWR maintain upto X sleeper and beyond TfW maintain.

Add the section across Cardiff West Junction to the TfW managed track, and you introduce no end of problems.

For Example:

Points 12345A fails which is on TfW inferstructure, however those points have multiple ends and interlocking to NWR points.

Who pays?

Why add complexity and cost ?

 

[lancastrian]

You know in the 1840's onwards they sorted all this out then, why are we trying to reinvent the 'wheel'.
If say the Taff Vale Railway ran through Cardiff Central (Great Western) through to the Penarth lines, they used what were called running powers.
They paid a fee for doing so, this was all sorted by The Railway Clearing House.
Now I know that in this 'enlighten time' we call modern day, things need so much more legal input (although why escapes me as it is no different to then). If a point on GWR lines failed they fixed it, the money had already been paid for use by the Taff Vale. Problem solved.

Now I know that someone will bring up that is could/will be electrified. Again so simple even a politician could understand it. TfW pays for Notwork Rail to install it all and pays a usage fee for the running powers. Why is everything so complicated.

End of rant.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Modern railway equals lots and lots of pound notes being pushed around the table before even one spanner is picked up out of the tool box.