Great Western Electrification Progress

[w1bbl3]

The same valuation is lacking with re-using skills while you have the chance. Obviously one cannot go round electrifying something just to keep the teams busy long term but the longer view needs to see how far into the future the next major electrification project is. Oh er, I've gone and said it !

The problem with construction is mobilisation, something rarely understood by clients/customers before you can actually start doing any work on the ground you first need to survey, design, price and procure the works realistically this is going to be a two to three year process.

So to achieve a constant workflow orders / approval to process for project B needs to be placed about 2 years ahead of project A reaching end of major works. GWML having long since pasted the major works completion point there would even if authorised tomorrow be a not insignificant period before any further work could be commenced and an associated skills gap.

 

[Envoy]

Perhaps they can find work on the south Wales Metro? The valley lines going north from Cardiff are due to wired - hopefully starting soon.

 

[jimm]

So we are nearly there then. I do hope the Didcot to Oxford electrification goes ahead, allowing 387s to go all the way to Oxford, finally freeing up 165/166s

And some 800s/802s as well.

800/802s can already go to Oxford under diesel power, in fact they've replaced 165/166s on the semi fast services between Oxford and London.

If the electrification is done it allows 387s to do the entire Oxford to London stopping service, freeing up a Class 165 that currently does a shuttle between Didcot and Oxford/Banbury

What used to be the semi-fast services between London and Oxford - the ones that stop at a few more places than just Reading and Slough - are worked by Class 387s and currently terminate at Didcot Parkway, with a dmu shuttle from there to Oxford and Banbury.

The IETs work the fast services.

Even if wires do reach Oxford, there will still be a need to use a dmu to Banbury (and the Cotswold Line morning and afternoon halts trains), though some dmus will be freed, as to takes more than one Turbo to cover the shuttle at the moment, plus there are a few Reading-Oxford through runs.

The allocation of 12 of the 387s to Heathrow Express makes it unlike that there will be the capacity within that fleet to cover any Oxford fasts if wiring happens. That was the plan in the past but one of the reasons for ordering the second batch of GWR Class 802s was to allow a reshuffle to permit all-IET working on the Oxford/Cotswold fast trains, since the 387s would not be able to reach Oxford.

 

[WAO]

The problem with construction is mobilisation, something rarely understood by clients/customers before you can actually start doing any work on the ground you first need to survey, design, price and procure the works realistically this is going to be a two to three year process.

So to achieve a constant workflow orders / approval to process for project B needs to be placed about 2 years ahead of project A reaching end of major works. GWML having long since pasted the major works completion point there would even if authorised tomorrow be a not insignificant period before any further work could be commenced and an associated skills gap.

As the Oxford wiring was stopped half way through with the Radley ATS finished, it could be re-started quickly as the preliminaries are unchanged. What might be a problem is the consideration of track quadrification or rebuilding of Oxford station.

Even 80x's run better (and more cheaply) under the wires.

WAO

 

[hwl]

As the Oxford wiring was stopped half way through with the Radley ATS finished, it could be re-started quickly as the preliminaries are unchanged. What might be a problem is the consideration of track quadrification or rebuilding of Oxford station.

Even 80x's run better (and more cheaply) under the wires.

WAO

And around 50% of the piling has been done too.
The Station rebuilding shouldn't be as issue as it effectively adding extra tracks to the west without realigning any of the phase 1 rebuild done so far.
The logistic base site at Didcot is still there.

Oxford is easier to restart than most schemes.

 

[swt_passenger]

As the Oxford wiring was stopped half way through with the Radley ATS finished, it could be re-started quickly as the preliminaries are unchanged. What might be a problem is the consideration of track quadrification or rebuilding of Oxford station.

Even 80x's run better (and more cheaply) under the wires.

WAO

We’ve been told somewhere that the current layout at Oxford has been future proofed for known additional platforms and could be electrified now.

 

[jimm]

We’ve been told somewhere that the current layout at Oxford has been future proofed for known additional platforms and could be electrified now.

I keep repeating this point every time someone suggests the potential rebuilding of the station is some terrible stumbling block.

And sorry, but I really can't be bothered to go looking for the link for the electrification schematic for the Oxford track layout - shown at various Network Rail consultation events in Oxford in recent years - yet again. It should be back up the thread somewhere.

 

[R G NOW.]

As I have stated on the hs2 thread Cardiff to Swansea needs to be next so the contractor could continue. If I had my way they would have another 10 year order to complete a lot more.

 

[devonexpress]

What used to be the semi-fast services between London and Oxford - the ones that stop at a few more places than just Reading and Slough - are worked by Class 387s and currently terminate at Didcot Parkway, with a dmu shuttle from there to Oxford and Banbury.

The IETs work the fast services.

Even if wires do reach Oxford, there will still be a need to use a dmu to Banbury (and the Cotswold Line morning and afternoon halts trains), though some dmus will be freed, as to takes more than one Turbo to cover the shuttle at the moment, plus there are a few Reading-Oxford through runs.

The allocation of 12 of the 387s to Heathrow Express makes it unlike that there will be the capacity within that fleet to cover any Oxford fasts if wiring happens. That was the plan in the past but one of the reasons for ordering the second batch of GWR Class 802s was to allow a reshuffle to permit all-IET working on the Oxford/Cotswold fast trains, since the 387s would not be able to reach Oxford.

You could still have the same set up as today but 387s terminating at Oxford rather than Didcot. With fast services worked by 80x.

 

[Optom1]

Cardiff to Swansea IET’s would gain very little time if they were changed from Diesel to electric traction,partly due the speed restrictions over the route,and partly due to having to follow a late running TfW late running dmu.I am even more exasperated when sitting outside Cardiff East waiting for a platform,discovering that an a empty Ebbw Vale/Taunton terminator has been sitting in the platform for 10-15 mins. Can anyone give me a reason for this?

 

[oglord]

Cardiff to Swansea IET’s would gain very little time if they were changed from Diesel to electric traction

It is not about saving time, but saving money with cheaper EMUs, and saving the environment!

sitting outside Cardiff East waiting for a platform,discovering that an a empty Ebbw Vale terminator has been sitting in the platform for 10-15 mins. Can anyone give me a reason for this?

Because they were sent to Cardiff rather than Newport?

 

[Peter Sarf]

The problem with construction is mobilisation, something rarely understood by clients/customers before you can actually start doing any work on the ground you first need to survey, design, price and procure the works realistically this is going to be a two to three year process.

So to achieve a constant workflow orders / approval to process for project B needs to be placed about 2 years ahead of project A reaching end of major works. GWML having long since pasted the major works completion point there would even if authorised tomorrow be a not insignificant period before any further work could be commenced and an associated skills gap.

Yes it is that hard to achieve continuity. It does need some forward thinking..

 

[Peter Sarf]

You forgot to mention all the expensive specialist plant rusting away or even scrapped.
Before I retired a colleague coined the phrase "unstoppable march of the clerks" where over promoted clerks seemed to be on a mission to de-skill so as to increase there status and pay. They, along with our clueless politicians still think that experienced engineers, technicians and expensive plant can materialise out of thin air and equally well vanish when not needed.
I remember in BR days the Easten Region engineer who controlled his budget then kept the piling team working up the East coast main line after the initial electrification was finished to Hitchin. Most usefull when the rest if the ECML was approved.
Glad I'm retired away from them all.
K
Retired engineer

Yes it is so frustrating. Not long to go for me either. I do find myself biting my lip avoiding conflict over unrealistic estimates by people who do not do the job. I then get blamed if I over run. I often hear 'its only a five minute job' - well often its going to take me more than five minutes to physically get there without being equipped or prepared.

 

[dave_sigs]

This arrived in the post yesterday at Cardiff. So written confirmation the GW electrification to South Wales is finished for now until maybe Welsh Assembly gets the valley lines possibly including Maesteg started. Something like the Preston Blackpool electrification hardware might be adequate as there's no need to future proof to 140mph. But outside of this forum. And a later extension to Swansea or Fishguard.
Disappointed as of about 35 or so trains timetabled in / out of CDF in rush hour yesterday only two in / two out were 800s. Rest all dirty diesels. Not to mention the heavy freight. Of about 40 800s I saw running yesterday to east of Cardiff, only about 50% had pans up on electric, the rest on diesel.
Anyway I reached 65 and 3/4 last week so am officially a retired OAP and now 'dave-ex-signals' so this will likely be my last post. Back in work for one day today checking and signing off some signalling approvals then one job left for me to do - upgrade SIL2 firmware I wrote last millennium so these younger engineers don't have to be paid to learn about programming using DOS, paper tape (and punched cards) then I'm gone from the railways for good.
Great Western to Swansea will have to be in someone else's lifetime on a new forum. Cheers!

 

[linuxlad7]

This arrived in the post yesterday at Cardiff. So written confirmation the GW electrification to South Wales is finished for now until maybe Welsh Assembly gets the valley lines possibly including Maesteg started. Something like the Preston Blackpool electrification hardware might be adequate as there's no need to future proof to 140mph. But outside of this forum. And a later extension to Swansea or Fishguard.
Disappointed as of about 35 or so trains timetabled in / out of CDF in rush hour yesterday only two in / two out were 800s. Rest all dirty diesels. Not to mention the heavy freight. Of about 40 800s I saw running yesterday to east of Cardiff, only about 50% had pans up on electric, the rest on diesel.
Anyway I reached 65 and 3/4 last week so am officially a retired OAP and now 'dave-ex-signals' so this will likely be my last post. Back in work for one day today checking and signing off some signalling approvals then one job left for me to do - upgrade SIL2 firmware I wrote last millennium so these younger engineers don't have to be paid to learn about programming using DOS, paper tape (and punched cards) then I'm gone from the railways for good.
Great Western to Swansea will have to be in someone else's lifetime on a new forum. Cheers!

meanwhile the engineers are scruggling down under the Shoots with their lengths of bright ally alloy cable (6082?? - I hope its not prone to Stress corrosion cracking.
Anyone know how they are doing.

 

[Optom1]

Once the civities were ordered that was the end for any foreseeable main line electrification in Wales.Plenty of fill ins further East to do.I assume Cross Country will acquire West Coast’s Voyagers so we will have to wait for those to show signs of expiring before wires on Cross Country routes.North Wales to have hybrids and no more diesels on the West coast is good news

 

[Meerkat]

Once the civities were ordered that was the end for any foreseeable main line electrification in Wales.Plenty of fill ins further East to do.I assume Cross Country will acquire West Coast’s Voyagers so we will have to wait for those to show signs of expiring before wires on Cross Country routes.North Wales to have hybrids and no more diesels on the West coast is good news

Depends - they could boost capacity elsewhere in Wales or WMT and replace them with electrics or bimodes

 

[Legolash2o]

Can someone please confirm what lines at Cardiff are electrified please? I'm sure I'm missing the through lines but not sure which one?

Thanks.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

Can someone please confirm what lines at Cardiff are electrified please? I'm sure I'm missing the through lines but not sure which one?

Thanks.
View attachment 72801

Up platform loop (Platform 0), Line A up to and including Cardiff Brickyard sidings, Lines B to E up to Cardiff West Jn and Up Barry Relief (Platform 4).

 

[59CosG95]

Up platform loop (Platform 0), Line A up to and including Cardiff Brickyard sidings, Lines B to E up to Cardiff West Jn and Up Barry Relief (Platform 4).

So, in layman's terms, (north to south):
Platform 0
Platform 1
Platform 2
Down Through Line
Up Through Line
Platform 3
Platform 4.

 

[Legolash2o]

Thanks, I'll try and upload some new maps later.

 

[linuxlad7]

BR did do planning for the HST-E in the 80s if I recall, and even ran some test runs with one of the pantograph fitted test cars, but it came to naught.

Hitachi also undertook the "Hayabusa" project with 43089, which fitted a battery to the powercar, essentially making it a battery-diesel hybrid, similar to a Prius. However, while test runs were successful, and 43089 operated NMT trains on battery power, the battery's size

required 43089 to be permanently coupled to a TGS fitted with electrical equipment, which sacrificed guard space (and would also have sacrificed space in passenger accommodation at the 1st Class end), so the scheme was abandoned and 43089 returned to regular service with EMT.

Back in the present, the coaches aren't exactly young, and it would have cost several arms & legs to overhaul every coach to that standard. At the time of procurement, hydrogen power hadn't advanced sufficiently to enable a full-scale replacement of MTUs with hydrogen powerpacks, which, even if they could reach the same level of performance, would take up more space - and that's before you consider the additional space required to house the pantograph wiring, transformers, inverters & rectifiers...



So, a nice idea while lying in bed, but one that's an unfortunate non-starter.

Meanwhile


if I bike down to Pilning will I see any locos with pantographs up???

(are we getting any nearer with using the tunnel (with juice on) commercially)







​

 

[JN114]

No, only IETs on electric in that area at present, there aren’t any freight flows currently suitable for electric/bi-mode haulage.

 

[Optom1]

It seems a pity that with all the work that has been done,the G.W.R timetable is working on a wing and a prayer.Cardiff- Newport in 11 mins. is almost unachievable;asking two five car units to uncouple at Newbury in the rush hour is a gamble;and rush hour into Paddington results in very few on time arrivals.Let us hope that G.W.management and Milton Keynes get together to find something more workable.

 

[MarkLong]

And around 50% of the piling has been done too.
The Station rebuilding shouldn't be as issue as it effectively adding extra tracks to the west without realigning any of the phase 1 rebuild done so far.
The logistic base site at Didcot is still there.

Oxford is easier to restart than most schemes.

But seems the DfT has electrification phobia now.

 

[td97]

But seems the DfT has electrification phobia now.

I suppose you conveniently missed the NR announcement earlier this month for £400m during CP6 towards renewal and enhancements design work, including electrification?
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....0m-contract-awards-to-deliver-design-services

 

[edwin_m]

I suppose you conveniently missed the NR announcement earlier this month for £400m during CP6 towards renewal and enhancements design work, including electrification?
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....0m-contract-awards-to-deliver-design-services

These are framework agreements to get suppliers in place, generally for the smaller jobs for which it's not worth going through a full procurement. They don't guarantee that any work will be let under any particular discipline. There will probably be some under "contact systems" but it could just be fairly minor work such as replacement of headspans or moving the OLE to suit track alterations.

 

[class26]

These are framework agreements to get suppliers in place, generally for the smaller jobs for which it's not worth going through a full procurement. They don't guarantee that any work will be let under any particular discipline. There will probably be some under "contact systems" but it could just be fairly minor work such as replacement of headspans or moving the OLE to suit track alterations.

Yes, and £400 million will not buy much electrification these days

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, amd £400 million will not buy much electrification these days

I think the £400 million is just for design services, as per the description of the framework. Design cost is generally less than 10% of the total cost of a project, so that could represent the design work for several billions of actual construction - assuming the funding is available to pay for it.

 

[Southsider]

Sorry if it’s been covered earlier - has a train, in passenger service or otherwise, run the full distance from Paddington to Cardiff or the other direction entirely on electric yet?