Great Western Electrification Progress

[Brissle Girl]

I just hope that they use something that is better looking between Chippenham & Temple Meads as the line passes through some very scenic countryside - plus of course, Bath.

Having travelled that route daily for 10 years, I’m not convinced the countryside scenery is so outstanding as to merit any particular effort as far as aesthetics is concerned, and Bath itself has already been considered given the particular sensitivities there.

Though given the speeds will not be particularly high, one would have thought that a less heavily engineered solution would be desirable on cost grounds if not outweighed by the redesign involved.

 

[Meerkat]

Perhaps something more like this in Spain:

http://www.trenscat.com/lav/images/22/02/P140105013.jpg

The dark green blends in better with the background. Just a thought!

Dark green would blend in better looking down, but stand out more when the background is sky

 

[Envoy]

Perhaps something more like this in Spain:

http://www.trenscat.com/lav/images/22/02/P140105013.jpg

The dark green blends in better with the background. Just a thought!

Yes, that looks much better but we don’t want a colour so dark that looking out from a train, it ‘annoys’ the eyes.

 

[McRhu]

Interesting stuff. Particularly interesting is the re-emergence of SICAT into UKMS. I thought it had been abandoned in the UK after Larkhall and Gourock line. I have to say, it's a lot less ungainly/downright ugly than Series 1 AND Series 2. And shorter masts make a big difference.

 

[edwin_m]

That's what caused all the cost overrun trouble in the first place.
Oxford has at least got many of the bases from Didcot already installed (done right at the start of the GW scheme something like 8 years ago).

In the global scale of things something that uses (at a guess) 25% more steelwork above ground than necessary isn't a big contributor to costs, as long as it can be installed in the same time on site. Most of the cost is in the design and the work on site, and if the base is already there it's probably cheaper to install the design that's already been done, even if somewhat overdone, than to pay the designers to come up with something a bit more efficient.

It may be a different story for anywhere that doesn't have bases yet. The piles on GWML were drastically over-engineered and often needed several visits to site before they could actually be installed. So it might be worth re-designing any uninstalled piles to the current standards, which in turn might require some changes to the structure that sits on the pile.

 

[Peter Sarf]

In the global scale of things something that uses (at a guess) 25% more steelwork above ground than necessary isn't a big contributor to costs, as long as it can be installed in the same time on site. Most of the cost is in the design and the work on site, and if the base is already there it's probably cheaper to install the design that's already been done, even if somewhat overdone, than to pay the designers to come up with something a bit more efficient.

It may be a different story for anywhere that doesn't have bases yet. The piles on GWML were drastically over-engineered and often needed several visits to site before they could actually be installed. So it might be worth re-designing any uninstalled piles to the current standards, which in turn might require some changes to the structure that sits on the pile.

You are right and then a horrible thing occurred to me. In several years time will there be any records to show what was used where. So I am tempted to say complete stretches should be consistent - no cheaper bases sneaked in amongst 90% (say) of the expensive bases. Perhaps Didcot - Oxford should be completed with above ground equipment matching the below ground over engineered bases. But there I am talking us into spending £s now .

 

[Peter Sarf]

Another question. I thought I heard on the news that the line was still closed somewhere near Parkway after Easter. Does that mean the planned bridge replacement for Easter that was delayed (?) has gone ahead ?.

Or was it a continuance of the work on the knitting in Severn Tunnel ?.

Indeed - Have we got any news on the status of the knitting in the Severn tunnels ?.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed - Have we got any news on the status of the knitting in the Severn tunnels ?.

pedant alert - it is ROCS rigid overhead conductor system not knitting but I knew what you meant.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

The Easter blockade was to install the bridge at Gypsy Patch plus PWay works at Ableton Lane and OLE work in the tunnel. The bridge job has been delayed but the remaining jobs have gone ahead. I believe the OLE work has been completed and just leaves the PWay works which is ongoing

 

[edwin_m]

You are right and then a horrible thing occurred to me. In several years time will there be any records to show what was used where. So I am tempted to say complete stretches should be consistent - no cheaper bases sneaked in amongst 90% (say) of the expensive bases. Perhaps Didcot - Oxford should be completed with above ground equipment matching the below ground over engineered bases. But there I am talking us into spending £s now .

I hope whatever they do they don't skimp on the records. Part of the reason we are where we are with GWML electrification is that the drawings of previous work have been lost, hence the risk of hitting signaling cables etc. Hopefully with everything now digital under Computer Aided Design and now Building Information Modelling there won't be such a problem retaining, updating and retrieving them - assuming cloud storage doesn't go the way of the eight-inch floppy disc...

 

[The Ham]

I hope whatever they do they don't skimp on the records. Part of the reason we are where we are with GWML electrification is that the drawings of previous work have been lost, hence the risk of hitting signaling cables etc. Hopefully with everything now digital under Computer Aided Design and now Building Information Modelling there won't be such a problem retaining, updating and retrieving them - assuming cloud storage doesn't go the way of the eight-inch floppy disc...

Given what happens elsewhere in the construction industry, I would hope that record keeping is much better than it was.

 

[Peter Sarf]

pedant alert - it is ROCS rigid overhead conductor system not knitting but I knew what you meant.

I knew what it was but not how to describe it. Must try and remember ROCS. (Or Starched knitting - sorry !.)

I hope whatever they do they don't skimp on the records. Part of the reason we are where we are with GWML electrification is that the drawings of previous work have been lost, hence the risk of hitting signaling cables etc. Hopefully with everything now digital under Computer Aided Design and now Building Information Modelling there won't be such a problem retaining, updating and retrieving them - assuming cloud storage doesn't go the way of the eight-inch floppy disc...

Where I worked I was asked to go through a library and throw as much as possible away. I got blamed for taking so long and I fear it still comes back to haunt me. It would have taken at least twice as long as I was allowed if I had the skip right next to me in the room. In fact it required about three skips not the one estimated !. Anyway I kept back a lot and showed it to almost retired staff and they were horrified !. So it does not just happen on the railways. It happens when your manager (and above) wants results now and you are causing trouble by thinking of the future.

Electronic records should be safer. But that is until each custodian assumes the other custodians will keep their copies anyway.

As an IT professional I can tell you that on more than one occasion I deduced that the backups were one of :-
a) faulty / inadequate.
b) kept in the same location as the originals.
c) not clearly documented.

As you say 8 inch floppy discs are not much use without a reader. The rate technology progresses these days the CD & DVD are close behind. I have just saved two USB floppy disc drives and by the time I need them USB slots will no longer be on a computer knowing my luck. Paper and print has been a standard medium for rather longer and can be read without a machine. Oh and I just thought of Microfiche - remember that - burns easily aiui.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Starched knitting - I love it!

 

[Wychwood93]

Yes, that looks much better but we don’t want a colour so dark that looking out from a train, it ‘annoys’ the eyes.

Also available in blue!

http://www.trenscat.com/lav/images/21/07/P080317113.jpg

As with the green it is possibly too dark. Perhaps toning both down a bit and then using them as per wartime 'dazzle camouflage'?

 

[Domh245]

Where I worked I was asked to go through a library and throw as much as possible away. I got blamed for taking so long and I fear it still comes back to haunt me. It would have taken at least twice as long as I was allowed if I had the skip right next to me in the room. In fact it required about three skips not the one estimated !. Anyway I kept back a lot and showed it to almost retired staff and they were horrified !. So it does not just happen on the railways. It happens when your manager (and above) wants results now and you are causing trouble by thinking of the future.

Electronic records should be safer. But that is until each custodian assumes the other custodians will keep their copies anyway.

As an IT professional I can tell you that on more than one occasion I deduced that the backups were one of :-
a) faulty / inadequate.
b) kept in the same location as the originals.
c) not clearly documented.

As you say 8 inch floppy discs are not much use without a reader. The rate technology progresses these days the CD & DVD are close behind. I have just saved two USB floppy disc drives and by the time I need them USB slots will no longer be on a computer knowing my luck. Paper and print has been a standard medium for rather longer and can be read without a machine. Oh and I just thought of Microfiche - remember that - burns easily aiui.

Thankfully for all the talk of changing storage standards, there are a few digital ones with a degree of permanence now - DXF and DWG files are both common for 2D drawings and have been around for 40 odd years now with backwards compatibility a key part of the format, and if nothing else there'll always be pdf!

I'd also think that there'll be plenty of copies of the drawings kicking around, for now at least! Network Rail will have a set as the owner/operator of the infrastucture, but there'll also be copies of the 'as-designed' that'll be held by Atkins, as well as a copies of the 'as-designed' and 'as-installed' drawings by the contractors who were out on the ground putting the piles and masts in. They'll hold on to these for as long as they need to as for the purposes of a**e-covering!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Starched knitting - I love it!

 

[takno]

if nothing else there'll always be pdf!

Sadly you're probably right. After the apocalypse all the worlds data will be stored in PDFs produced by pointlessly printing and then rescanning data which could perfectly happily have been stored as text. Luckily it won't matter because it will be on zip drives

 

[linuxlad7]

Sadly you're probably right. After the apocalypse all the worlds data will be stored in PDFs produced by pointlessly printing and then rescanning data which could perfectly happily have been stored as text. Luckily it won't matter because it will be on zip drives

In my youth I did quite a bit of experimental work on 'fci' in nuclear reactors, mainly boxes full of eg high speed films - we published a little of it, but alas were ordered to skip most of it in the interests of tidyness as things moved on.

 

[edwin_m]

Sadly you're probably right. After the apocalypse all the worlds data will be stored in PDFs produced by pointlessly printing and then rescanning data which could perfectly happily have been stored as text. Luckily it won't matter because it will be on zip drives

Even if the relevant software won't output a PDF, I though every computer had an option to "print" directly to a PDF with no paper involved.

 

[Roast Veg]

Even if the relevant software won't output a PDF, I though every computer had an option to "print" directly to a PDF with no paper involved.

Not quite. Google chrome offers it as a feature (it also has a native PDF reader which is far preferable to installing any Adobe product, but that's by the by), Windows PCs have had the ability to export to XPS file since XP which is largely not useful.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not quite. Google chrome offers it as a feature (it also has a native PDF reader which is far preferable to installing any Adobe product, but that's by the by), Windows PCs have had the ability to export to XPS file since XP which is largely not useful.

There are a number of utilities for Windows that look like a printer to apps but output to a pdf file.

 

[edwin_m]

There are a number of utilities for Windows that look like a printer to apps but output to a pdf file.

There are at least two on the PC my employer supplies me. I suspect pretty standard for any PC that's used for CAD (which mine isn't), because drawings are typically stored and distributed as PDFs as well as in the native format.

 

[WAO]

There are at least two on the PC my employer supplies me. I suspect pretty standard for any PC that's used for CAD (which mine isn't), because drawings are typically stored and distributed as PDFs as well as in the native format.

I've used CUTE for a long time successfully. Google CUTE pdf. It appears as an alternative printer but prints to file. Don't forget to reset your default printer, afterwards.

WAO

 

[JamesT]

There are a number of utilities for Windows that look like a printer to apps but output to a pdf file.

One has been included as of Windows 10.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Any new electrification is going to be more expensive than even GWML electrification as the supply chain has been burnt already.

Many firms invested heavily in plant, staff etc in anticipation of a rolling scheme only to have the projects cancelled or scaled back.

Why would you now do job at a cheaper price than last time, if last time you brought all this new gear only to be left high and dry ?
We’re in danger of doing the same thing as last time after the East Coast job, letting skills and equipment move away and become lost.

This country will never learn.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I just hope that they use something that is better looking between Chippenham & Temple Meads as the line passes through some very scenic countryside - plus of course, Bath.

Its a railway, its meant to do a job not look pretty.

What does Bath want? 44t HGV and millions of cars / busses or electric trains?

 

[si404]

Its a railway, its meant to do a job not look pretty.

Why can't it do both? Or at the very least not look ugly in places where the beauty/aesthetics are protected by law.

Chilterns and North Wessex Downs AONB got (hard fought) mitigation as to the visual impact of the electrification in the Goring Gap - why shouldn't the Cotswolds AONB and Bath World Heritage Site have similar mitigation?

What does Bath want? 44t HGV and millions of cars / busses or electric trains?

That's not the choice - the choice is diesel running or electric running (and then only on the London-Bristol trains for now). Wiring wouldn't do much for modal shift.

 

[McRhu]

The GWML has been inflicted with what must be the most ugly and intrusive OLE in the UK. Did Series 1 ever really have to be so regressively heavy and cumbersome, even when 140 mph running was expected? I appreciate the problems with headspan stability, but there must be a more elegant way of doing things without resort to unnecessarily exotic designs or materials. Existing OLE designs can handle up to 125mph apparently (back to SICAT and UK1 again); is there no feasible way these could be upped to handle the extra 15mph? What about a return compound catenary? As to using the existing bases: surely any ole system could be bolted on to those whoppers. You could tether the moon to those without them coming loose.

 

[The Ham]

That's not the choice - the choice is diesel running or electric running (and then only on the London-Bristol trains for now). Wiring wouldn't do much for modal shift.

Wiring may have some impact on modal shift, in that electric trains are seen as much better for the environment than driving a ICE car, however that ignores the fact that a diesel train is much more environmentally friendly than a car in the first place.

 

[stuu]

Chilterns and North Wessex Downs AONB got (hard fought) mitigation as to the visual impact of the electrification in the Goring Gap - why shouldn't the Cotswolds AONB and Bath World Heritage Site have similar mitigation?

Did they? Did anything actually ever come of that? I thought there was lots of moaning and NR made some vague comments and it was all forgotten, might be wrong though