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Great Western Franchise Extension 2020 to?

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CC 72100

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Hmm, making a 5 coach 166 in which two vehicles are unpowered? I mean you would have a nice long train but it won't be going anywhere.

A 3 car unit with one engine out is bad enough already.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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Hmm, making a 5 coach 166 in which two vehicles are unpowered? I mean you would have a nice long train but it won't be going anywhere.

A 3 car unit with one engine out is bad enough already.

this is part of a new traction pack I understand.
 

JN114

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Sounds like a case of 2+2 = 7, a short fantasy novel and 3 watercolours
 

irish_rail

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If any of that is true, the 2 car 150s will need replacing by other 2 car stock due to platform lengths on branchlines in Cornwall, so a HST or 3 or 5 car turbo won't cut the mustard I'm afraid.
 

popeter45

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If any of that is true, the 2 car 150s will need replacing by other 2 car stock due to platform lengths on branchlines in Cornwall, so a HST or 3 or 5 car turbo won't cut the mustard I'm afraid.
SDO could be used on something like a 3-4 car bi mode FLIRT like the class 755's
 

JonathanH

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SDO could be used on something like a 3-4 car bi mode FLIRT like the class 755's

With the best will in the world that isn't going to fit in the platform at Looe and would be interesting on the curve at Calstock. I would also imagine that year-round demand on many of the branches is not going to approach justifying the expense of a 3-4 car bi-mode.
 

Meerkat

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If any of that is true, the 2 car 150s will need replacing by other 2 car stock due to platform lengths on branchlines in Cornwall, so a HST or 3 or 5 car turbo won't cut the mustard I'm afraid.
platforms can be extended if they are too busy for SDO
With the best will in the world that isn't going to fit in the platform at Looe and would be interesting on the curve at Calstock. I would also imagine that year-round demand on many of the branches is not going to approach justifying the expense of a 3-4 car bi-mode.
People we’re saying that about the Flirts for GA. The vast improvement in quality and performance would bring a few extra passengers.
 

JonathanH

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People we’re saying that about the Flirts for GA. The vast improvement in quality and performance would bring a few extra passengers.

Yes, but there is a bit more commuter traffic into Norwich and Ipswich than there is around rural bits of Cornwall.

I can imagine an increase in capacity being reasonable for Falmouth year round and St Ives in season but the other branches are a bit different.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Oh good, I'm glad I don't need to start another thread and say what I've seen - apparently 10 Class 150/2's are being retained so I'm guessing all or most services that are 2-coach 150's will be 4 coaches. So it looks like 150's are staying for some time yet.

That's interesting regarding the Class 365 coaches.

Personally, I'm delighted that the Turbos are apparently going to be refurbished too - I've been wanting that for like 3 years. I've been on a few Turbos before the lockdown where the interiors have looked clean - really it's the seats I feel look faded so a new interior I'll hugely welcome!

There'll be some people that want the Turbos gone but sorry, I think they're rock solid reliable trains which I think have plenty of life left in them.

They're not that much older than the oldest Class 168's and 170's.

More converted HST's sounds a very good plan. If on the Cornish Mainline services they're replacing 4-coach (2x2-formed) Class 158's then 4-coach HST's vs a 2 x 2-formed 4-coach 158 means 53 more seats per Castle set (I have the Guide to Services book and) - 252 in a 4-coach 158 and 305 in a 4-coach Castle HST).

And of course, Class 769's being introduced is excellent news too.

Excellent times ahead I think.
 

fgwrich

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platforms can be extended if they are too busy for SDO

People we’re saying that about the Flirts for GA. The vast improvement in quality and performance would bring a few extra passengers.
Yes, but there is a bit more commuter traffic into Norwich and Ipswich than there is around rural bits of Cornwall.

I can imagine an increase in capacity being reasonable for Falmouth year round and St Ives in season but the other branches are a bit different.


Indeed, you'd need a lot of good luck (and cash) to rebuild the platforms at Looe & Calstock Looe can just take a 2 car Class 150, While Calstock would require a total rebuild due to it's curvature. Any rebuilding of those stations would require a substantial investment, which I just cant see the returns on either branchline being worth while. As you say, Falmouth, St Ives and possibly Newquay, but not Looe or Gunnislake.
 

The Ham

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Indeed, you'd need a lot of good luck (and cash) to rebuild the platforms at Looe & Calstock Looe can just take a 2 car Class 150, While Calstock would require a total rebuild due to it's curvature. Any rebuilding of those stations would require a substantial investment, which I just cant see the returns on either branchline being worth while. As you say, Falmouth, St Ives and possibly Newquay, but not Looe or Gunnislake.

There's a solution to Gunnislake, which would be to build to Tavistock (or reopen via Okehampton) and use a single unit (there's lots to pick from) on a self contained shuttle over the shortened branch.

There's already another thread for the lengthening of the Turbos:

 

Clarence Yard

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There are two things being conflated here.

The immediate need for the West is being satisfied by the 16 x 165/1 3 cars and possibly a very few more GTi sets (the latter is a decision with the DfT now and is extra to DA3). The possible lengthening of the Turbos is another project entirely.

The Hydrive project is key to this lengthening. The proposal is to use Angel 465 cars (not 365 cars) as unpowered inserts but it all depends on the Hydrive modification being a successful one, which is why it couldn't be definitely included in the DA3 award as a committed scheme. I have the plans for reseated (2+2) 5 car Turbos on my desk but it is only one of several stock options that could be pursued.

This scheme (and others) may come later as what FG have managed to get funded in DA3 is a proper study on options for the GWR DMU Fleet which is what, I presume, the MR article is referring to.

There are two GWR branch lines that are thought to be difficult to sort out for 23m stock. One is Looe, where the reverse curve off the main line was a big problem and the other is the Gunny, which has curvature issues too. We have one person working for us who used to work for W&W and carried out the 23m tests at walking pace. He remembers where the curve was on the Gunny where the unit started to climb the rails! You can ease a curve but coupler and cardan shaft "throw" on 15x stock can still be a show-stopper.
 

Ashley Hill

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Indeed,C3 stock is banned from those lines. 158s are only cleared for reversing moves at St Budeax VR.
5 car Turbos would cause too many problems at short platforms. Even with 3 and 4 car 150s local door operation at short platforms has been going on for too long. It ok for out of coarse stops but not for regular timetabled services. IMO either trains should fit the platform or the platform fit the trains.
 

Clarence Yard

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Indeed,C3 stock is banned from those lines. 158s are only cleared for reversing moves at St Budeax VR.
5 car Turbos would cause too many problems at short platforms. Even with 3 and 4 car 150s local door operation at short platforms has been going on for too long. It ok for out of coarse stops but not for regular timetabled services. IMO either trains should fit the platform or the platform fit the trains.

5 car Turbos are only for services like Pompey-Cardiff. SDO is the way forward for shorter platforms - manual local door operation, in my opinion, should be banned.
 

Rhydgaled

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There are two GWR branch lines that are thought to be difficult to sort out for 23m stock. One is Looe, where the reverse curve off the main line was a big problem and the other is the Gunny, which has curvature issues too. We have one person working for us who used to work for W&W and carried out the 23m tests at walking pace. He remembers where the curve was on the Gunny where the unit started to climb the rails! You can ease a curve but coupler and cardan shaft "throw" on 15x stock can still be a show-stopper.
Isn't Looe often served by a class 153, which is a 23m unit? I'm fairly sure it was a 153 when I did it. The Gunnislake branch was a 150 on my trip though so there might be a problem there.
 

Ashley Hill

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5 car Turbos are only for services like Pompey-Cardiff. SDO is the way forward for shorter platforms - manual local door operation, in my opinion, should be banned.
SDO on Turbos will be under the control of the driver and yet another nail in the coffin for the guard. It's also a cop out for platform lengthening and a ball ache on non-gangwayed stock.
Isn't Looe often served by a class 153, which is a 23m unit? I'm fairly sure it was a 153 when I did it. The Gunnislake branch was a 150 on my trip though so there might be a problem there.
GWR no longer have any 153s. They did go to Gunnislake too!
 

LowLevel

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Local door operation is either perfectly adequate or a total nightmare. We have some platforms which struggle to fit 1 coach let alone 2 and local door operation handles them perfectly as they're in rural areas.

On the other hand we have some busy commuter services formed of 4 car 15x stopping every few minutes and local door on those is a complete pain in the arse, anything at busy stations causes problems though we do have it in our SMS for the guard to walk along manually opening doors with the ingress valves. Wheelchair users etc are also hard to manage with the guard having to buzz the driver to get the right door on the Harrington Hump at some stations.

The solution on SWR's 158/9 units seems to work well, it's simply an extra button the guard presses to prevent the doors arming behind them by blocking the signal and thus can be used to open half carriages if desired.
 

Ashley Hill

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Local door operation is either perfectly adequate or a total nightmare. We have some platforms which struggle to fit 1 coach let alone 2 and local door operation handles them perfectly as they're in rural areas.

On the other hand we have some busy commuter services formed of 4 car 15x stopping every few minutes and local door on those is a complete pain in the arse, anything at busy stations causes problems though we do have it in our SMS for the guard to walk along manually opening doors with the ingress valves. Wheelchair users etc are also hard to manage with the guard having to buzz the driver to get the right door on the Harrington Hump at some stations.

The solution on SWR's 158/9 units seems to work well, it's simply an extra button the guard presses to prevent the doors arming behind them by blocking the signal and thus can be used to open half carriages if desired.
The passenger external egress handles on GWR 150/158s have plastic seals on them preventing manual opening.
The 158/159 system works well (front 3,6or9)and is under control of the guard. On Turbos it's the driver who opens the doors so they will have control of SDO like the IETs. At least West guards still close the doors themselves.
 

JN114

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The passenger external egress handles on GWR 150/158s have plastic seals on them preventing manual opening.
The 158/159 system works well (front 3,6or9)and is under control of the guard. On Turbos it's the driver who opens the doors so they will have control of SDO like the IETs. At least West guards still close the doors themselves.

The “West” method of working applies to all Turbos now, except those units which haven’t had the new panels installed (and that list is fast dwindling)
 

Ashley Hill

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Does that apply to Reading-Basingstoke. At Reading the guard waves his flag out the window and the dispatcher presses the RA. AFAIK the rest of the line is 10 buzz despatch. Has this now changed since Westbury guards started working the line?
The door close buttons would need modification too to allow the guard to close them on LTV units.
 

Clarence Yard

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Isn't Looe often served by a class 153, which is a 23m unit? I'm fairly sure it was a 153 when I did it. The Gunnislake branch was a 150 on my trip though so there might be a problem there.

It's coupled 23m stock that I am referring to, not singles. You obviously don't get the coupler issue on a 153, nor do you have the cardan shaft issue.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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There is nothing to debate as the 150s, if not all, will be staying.

And very good too - hopefully GWR will in the Exeter area run 4-coach Class 150's all day. On the 02/01/20, I dread to think how busy the 2-car 150 would have been from Exeter St. David's (caught it on the 15:50ish from Exeter Central which was standing room only). Couldn't look forward enough to the Quiet Coach XC HST on the 16:27 to Bristol, changing for Didcot!

Getting back to the subject though, those 150's are excellent people shifters - I'll admit that even when a bit crowded there's more room to stand on those than in a vestibule of a 158 or InterCity train.
 
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Brissle Girl

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There are two things being conflated here.

The immediate need for the West is being satisfied by the 16 x 165/1 3 cars and possibly a very few more GTi sets (the latter is a decision with the DfT now and is extra to DA3). The possible lengthening of the Turbos is another project entirely.

The Hydrive project is key to this lengthening. The proposal is to use Angel 465 cars (not 365 cars) as unpowered inserts but it all depends on the Hydrive modification being a successful one, which is why it couldn't be definitely included in the DA3 award as a committed scheme. I have the plans for reseated (2+2) 5 car Turbos on my desk but it is only one of several stock options that could be pursued.

This scheme (and others) may come later as what FG have managed to get funded in DA3 is a proper study on options for the GWR DMU Fleet which is what, I presume, the MR article is referring to.
5 car 16x units with 2+2 seating would seem, at longer last, to deliver a reasonable compromise for the line between the needs of commuter traffic and the quality needed for the longer distance traffic. Not ideal for either, but much better than the current set up.

But, I can’t help thinking that the time, effort and uncertainty around the project, which if successful will, at some cost, deliver a fleet of diesel units that will already be 30 years old, doesn’t seem a compelling option financially in terms of life expectancy of the stock.

As well as the new build option (and everyone says how good value that is at the moment) , there will be a surfeit of Class 22x stock coming available relatively soon. I appreciate that the door configuration would not be ideal for commuter traffic (but no worse than the Class 158s), but is it the line west of St Denys which would preclude their use on the service?
 

JonathanH

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5 car 16x units with 2+2 seating would seem, at longer last, to deliver a reasonable compromise for the line between the needs of commuter traffic and the quality needed for the longer distance traffic. Not ideal for either, but much better than the current set up.

But, I can’t help thinking that the time, effort and uncertainty around the project, which if successful will, at some cost, deliver a fleet of diesel units that will already be 30 years old, doesn’t seem a compelling option financially in terms of life expectancy of the stock.

It buys time and spreads investment - if it doesn't work out financially it helps with the business case for the replacement stock - seems like a good idea.

'Clarence Yard' has told us that the 16xs have been assessed and are good for ten years, maybe more. These rebuilds and upgrades follow engineering assessments - they aren't done on a whim.

As well as the new build option (and everyone says how good value that is at the moment) , there will be a surfeit of Class 22x stock coming available relatively soon.

That is verging on 'speculative ideas'. They are simply overspecified and inefficient for the Cardiff to Portsmouth route which has both significant commuter flows and longer distance travellers and very little route mileage over 90mph. There are many threads which discuss this - 22x are just not going to happen on the route.
 

Brissle Girl

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It buys time and spreads investment - if it doesn't work out financially it helps with the business case for the replacement stock - seems like a good idea.

'Clarence Yard' has told us that the 16xs have been assessed and are good for ten years, maybe more. These rebuilds and upgrades follow engineering assessments - they aren't done on a whim.

That is verging on 'speculative ideas'. They are simply overspecified and inefficient for the Cardiff to Portsmouth route which has both significant commuter flows and longer distance travellers and very little route mileage over 90mph. There are many threads which discuss this - 22x are just not going to happen on the route.
Fair point re the Class 22x.

Appreciate that engineering assessments are a pre-requisite to any such work. Although I'd suggest that the glacial speed of the Class 769 conversion against the original promised timescales would suggest that they may not always be as robust as they might be. And it would appear that in this case the Hydrive project is similarly at a fairly early stage of development, so this doesn't seem like it's going to be a quick process, all of which will eat into the number of years which the ROSCO will have to recover it's investment given the (by rolling stock measures) limited lifespan left of the units.

Spreading investment shouldn't be an issue. Remember, it will be a ROSCO that would put up the cash, and they will themselves have recourse to funding for any new build of rolling stock. The TOC (and de facto the government) will simply pay whatever leasing charge is agreed when the deal is done. So the two options are 1) a new build, which would be certain, be a long term solution, and be tailored for the specific characteristics of the line; or 2) wait a couple of years whilst assessing whether the rebuilt Class 16x idea both works technically and is compelling against a new build financially, then spend a couple more years implementing it. Remember the last DA required GWR to assess other rolling stock options for the line which came to naught, so the problem has already been kicked into touch once for a couple of years.
 

KT530

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Does that apply to Reading-Basingstoke. At Reading the guard waves his flag out the window and the dispatcher presses the RA. AFAIK the rest of the line is 10 buzz despatch. Has this now changed since Westbury guards started working the line?
The door close buttons would need modification too to allow the guard to close them on LTV units.


Applies to all Guarded Turbo routes in the East, from 13 April.

Guard closes doors and gives driver 2 buzzer.

Driver would only get (and still gets) RA at Reading on platforms 1-3, where a specific Local Instruction applies.

Door controls were modified a few years ago as part of the West cascade.
 

LowLevel

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10 bells is a clunky dispatch method so it makes no real sense to use it if there's an alternative option available.
 
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