Greater Anglia 2019 - Speculation and info

[eastdyke]

2x360? Really? I thought they weren't supposed to go north of Stowmarket?

I am sure that I have seen on this forum that they are cleared north of Stowmarket. (Well they must be!)

The 2 issues are power draw for a 12 car (this 'test' was 8 car) and the fact that Norwich crews don't sign 360's.

I wonder what stopping patterns and dwell times were used for the 87 min. runs?

 

[LAX54]

I am sure that I have seen on this forum that they are cleared north of Stowmarket. (Well they must be!)

The 2 issues are power draw for a 12 car (this 'test' was 8 car) and the fact that Norwich crews don't sign 360's.

I wonder what stopping patterns and dwell times were used for the 87 min. runs?

The restriction was removed quite a few years ago now, and I think it was more the routing issue at Stowmarket that made NR bar it.

As for the actual run. it was non stop Norwich to Ipswich, then a 20 min stop for pathing, and then non stop to Liverpool Street, it did have one minor knock on to another service at Norwich due to platform issues. (not enough of them ! lol ) the trip to Norwich was the same fast to Ipswich. approx 20 mins stop, then fast to Norwich

 

[eastdyke]

The restriction was removed quite a few years ago now, and I think it was more the routing issue at Stowmarket that made NR bar it.

As for the actual run. it was non stop Norwich to Ipswich, then a 20 min stop for pathing, and then non stop to Liverpool Street, it did have one minor knock on to another service at Norwich due to platform issues. (not enough of them ! lol ) the trip to Norwich was the same fast to Ipswich. approx 20 mins stop, then fast to Norwich

Thanks! No fanfares in Diss and Colchester then

3tph Norwich may also prove entertaining for platforming come the day.

 

[LAX54]

Thanks! No fanfares in Diss and Colchester then

3tph Norwich may also prove entertaining for platforming come the day.

"come the day" I think they have already twigged that even with the current service where they platform share at Ipswich / Norwich, the new stock is too long actually share said platforms !

 

[eastdyke]

"come the day" I think they have already twigged that even with the current service where they platform share at Ipswich / Norwich, the new stock is too long actually share said platforms !

Ipswich P5/6 'Freightliner' Platforms and Norwich P7/8 'Jubilee' Platforms?

 

[cle]

So without the pathing, the service was actually 67 mins running?!

 

[eastdyke]

So without the pathing, the service was actually 67 mins running?!

errrrr. no!

 

[Class 170101]

Nearer 87 minutes.

 

[LAX54]

So without the pathing, the service was actually 67 mins running?!

87 mins, but this was a Sunday, reduced passenger service, no freight, and one stop !

 

[LAX54]

Ipswich P5/6 'Freightliner' Platforms and Norwich P7/8 'Jubilee' Platforms?

We have heard a rumour that they well sell the FL Offices, and Car Park, move them upside and a multi-company fuel point, this will enable 5 and 6 at Ipswich.
AGA units will have to be fuelled every day due to the lowish mileage on a tank full !

 

[cle]

I asked because of this:

As for the actual run. it was non stop Norwich to Ipswich, then a 20 min stop for pathing, and then non stop to Liverpool Street, it did have one minor knock on to another service at Norwich due to platform issues. (not enough of them ! lol ) the trip to Norwich was the same fast to Ipswich. approx 20 mins stop, then fast to Norwich

 

[eastdyke]

I asked because of this:
As for the actual run. it was non stop Norwich to Ipswich, then a 20 min stop for pathing, and then non stop to Liverpool Street, it did have one minor knock on to another service at Norwich due to platform issues. (not enough of them ! lol ) the trip to Norwich was the same fast to Ipswich. approx 20 mins stop, then fast to Norwich

The route is a few yards short of 115 miles. To have done that distance in 67 mins would have required an end to end average speed greater than both the permitted line speed of any section of the line and also of the units.

 

[Wivenswold]

Not an update I'm afraid but I was wondering whether TfL would be bound under a FOI request to provide a copy of the indicative timetable proposal in the GA bid.

Does anyone have any reliable contacts at the DfT, my man got moved on from there in 2013 for making too many suggestions, I gather.

 

[LAX54]

2x360? Really? I thought they weren't supposed to go north of Stowmarket?

Not allowed on Wensum Curve, and barred from Royal Dock sdg No 1, apart from that, no restrictions.

 

[samuelmorris]

Not sure I see why TfL would be at liberty to disclose a private company's document, just because they are made privy to it?

 

[Wivenswold]

Sorry, meant DfT. Just thinking that they released the contract albeit redacted for commercially sensitive bits and a minimum standards chart for what frequency of service all stations must have. I was thinking that the winning indicative timetable might also be "in the public interest". I'm just being nosey really.

 

[samuelmorris]

You're welcome to try, but it may not prove all that much since it'll all be subject to change. Do the bidders have to submit that level of detail to the DfT?

 

[Wivenswold]

Still no sign of the new timetable consultation that was on their timeline for "Spring 2018". I assume there's headaches aplenty in the train planning team but it's a little disingenuous of GA to simply remove the timeline targets they've failed to hit.

 

[LAX54]

Still no sign of the new timetable consultation that was on their timeline for "Spring 2018". I assume there's headaches aplenty in the train planning team but it's a little disingenuous of GA to simply remove the timeline targets they've failed to hit.

Have they just found out the trains will not fit where they want them to go ?? ! lol

 

[StephenHunter]

In the meantime, can't they just use the existing timings for the new stock?

 

[Wivenswold]

It's a phased changeover so yes, new stock will be used on existing timings. Intercity and regional routes start in December 2019 then the 321/360/720 services change in May 2020.

From an outsider's perspective I am baffled as to how a new improved faster IC timetable can fit into the same old service on the same line, surely it would have been more sensible to introduce faster suburban timings once the last of the slower DC Class 321s go off lease in time for the December 2019 timetable.

There's a lot that still doesn't add up though. Like why they're sending the 10 car 720s to work on WA when most of their services are only 8 car at present.

 

[JW16]

Will Romford lose its fasts to London/Shenfield after the full launch of Crossrail?

 

[Alfie1014]

Will Romford lose its fasts to London/Shenfield after the full launch of Crossrail?

Latest rumours suggest not with two of the 4 Southend Vics calling.

 

[Geswedey]

With there only being 10 units for STEX services and the CBG and HFE services going to 3 per hour is the stex service reducing from 4 per hour to 3 per hour.

the current STEX service requires 9 8 car sets.so only 10 replacement units would be very tight for a 15 minute service unless turn round times were significantly shortened.

 

[dk1]

With there only being 10 units for STEX services and the CBG and HFE services going to 3 per hour is the stex service reducing from 4 per hour to 3 per hour.

the current STEX service requires 9 8 car sets.so only 10 replacement units would be very tight for a 15 minute service unless turn round times were significantly shortened.

Will continue to operate a 15min service with 9/10 units same as Norwich route Stadler availability. Class 720s will stand in as neccesary.

 

[Geswedey]

Interesting as a drivers rep at one of the west anglia depots has said the stex services are going down to 3 per hour

 

[43074]

The train service requirement (available on the DfT site) specifies 4 per hour between Liverpool Street and Stansted, Abellio wouldn't propose a 3tph service as their bid wouldn't be compliant if they did. I'd take the word of the drivers rep with a pinch of salt at this stage, especially as dk1 points out you can run a 15 min service with 9 units.

It will be interesting to see what service is proposed for the (Intercity) Norwich services, given the current service requires 10 sets for a half hourly service off peak and an extra set in the peaks.

 

[Alfie1014]

The train service requirement (available on the DfT site) specifies 4 per hour between Liverpool Street and Stansted, Abellio wouldn't propose a 3tph service as their bid wouldn't be compliant if they did. I'd take the word of the drivers rep with a pinch of salt at this stage, especially as dk1 points out you can run a 15 min service with 9 units.

It will be interesting to see what service is proposed for the (Intercity) Norwich services, given the current service requires 10 sets for a half hourly service off peak and an extra set in the peaks.

I believe the only way it can be done is to assume that one of the services per hour (the faster one) can be sped up to achieve a 1h 40m journey time (COL IPS only?) and at the same time reduce one of the turn rounds from 35 to 20 mins. By doing this you can reduce the requirement to 9 diagrams rather than 10. All very heroic of course especially with current performance. The extra peak diagram is to be worked by a Stansted set, not least as one per night will need to get to Crown Point for maintenance. On arrival it would then slip into an all day Stansted diagram.

I still believe going for two small fleets of 10 units is a mistake. 20 units of a common design would be much more flexible allowing a much greater degree of substitution. OK the provision on the Stansteds may be considered over the top but you could always declassify if needs be and as some will have to stable at Cambridge overnight a couple of high quality services from the University city in the peaks might encourage some commuters to transfer off the GN, especially as ironing boards rule there now!

The nirvana of seats at all cost into London in peaks May yet come back to haunt this (and other) TOCs if patronage continues to decline and quality rather than quantity becomes more of a defining factor in the future.

 

[Wivenswold]

With regard to the Stan-ex services, could the franchise agreement allow for one of the 4 per hour to be a GA branded service using 720s that go on to Cambridge?

 

[rick_suffolk]

So things may be tight but just about manageable for now. You just have to feel for people in say 20 or so years time when all the trains will likely be less reliable than when new and then what?

Now it’s possible to remove a single coach from IC sets whereas in future the whole train is out for any faults. Same for the 10 car 720s. So today an 8 can be reduced to 4 but a fault on a 10 car means 10 to zero.