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Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

py_megapixel

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It seems almost certain the 10 cars will no longer be built and will be replaced with more 5 cars. Will help with maintenance, increase flexibility and should help speed up the build process.
Would like to see a source for that also - but it seems baffling that they didn't originally order them like that.
 
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py_megapixel

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I guess I'll treat that as probable (but not definite) then.

(I appreciate for privacy reasons sources can't always be cited, I was just interested to know if this had been announced anywhere public yet)
 

Shunter_69

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It’s not been announced publicly yet, no real need to do that at present. It doesn’t really affect passengers that much but makes life easier for the company for maintenance requirements and fleet flexibility/reliability. Maybe once the first 5 cars enter service the news will come out.
 

fat_boy_pete

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It’s not been announced publicly yet, no real need to do that at present. It doesn’t really affect passengers that much but makes life easier for the company for maintenance requirements and fleet flexibility/reliability. Maybe once the first 5 cars enter service the news will come out.
Thank you for the clarification.
 

MrPIC

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Have also heard this from a few sources. Makes total sense, but surely this must add quite a lot of money to the cost? The cab is the most expensive part right?
Personally I reckon they should have taken the coaches from the fixed 10's and lengthened some of the 5's to be 8/9 (in "legacy stock" lengths) to work West Anglia , would save having to use asdo at every station and moving signals etc etc. Fixed 8 cars on the Hertford's would be perfectly adequate I'd say.
 

fat_boy_pete

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Have also heard this from a few sources. Makes total sense, but surely this must add quite a lot of money to the cost? The cab is the most expensive part right?
Personally I reckon they should have taken the coaches from the fixed 10's and lengthened some of the 5's to be 8/9 (in "legacy stock" lengths) to work West Anglia , would save having to use asdo at every station and moving signals etc etc. Fixed 8 cars on the Hertford's would be perfectly adequate I'd say.
Would have to be 7 cars (7 X 24) to match current 8 cars (8 X 20).
 

Shunter_69

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I was gonna say 8 or 9 would still be too long for maintenance.

Everything is set up for 5 and 10 out on the network so would add more cost to change to a different length.

I would imagine they are doing a deal on the extra cabs to speed up production as they are so far behind on the whole Aventura range.
 

Mollman

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Would like to see a source for that also - but it seems baffling that they didn't originally order them like that.
As mentioned by others it saves costs on cabs etc. when you have all day 10 car diagrams hence why SWR have done the same (and why people are frustrated by 80Xs running around all day as 2x5).
 

Shunter_69

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2 x 5 instead of 1 x 10 gives greater flexibility. 10 cars running around virtually empty off peak makes no sense whatsoever. Also if one of the 5 cars develops a fault you can still run the other 5 car. That might not always be ideal but is better running something than nothing.

I think it makes a lot of sense to change the order.
 

DorkingMain

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Only major problem with specifying pairs of 5 cars is that without gangways, the pairs can't work on any route where there's a platform shorter than 6 coaches (as passengers will be trapped in the back half and unable to move forward).
 
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Shunter_69

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True but not really an issue on GA as the only places where it could be an issue were already planned for 5 car operation.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Only major problem with specifying pairs of 5 cars is that without gangways, the pairs can't work on any route where there's a platform shorter than 6 coaches (as passengers will be trapped in the back half and unable to move forward).
One the benefits on the 700's is the ease with which you can move through the train so concentrated loading at a few doors, especially prevalent in bad weather, quickly disperses down the train. Separate units don't allow that and will always resulting in uneven loading. Also on DOO services the driver can't get back.
 

DorkingMain

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True but not really an issue on GA as the only places where it could be an issue were already planned for 5 car operation.

For sure. It may be marginally prohibitive to any peak longer-distances workings to lines with short platforms though.

One the benefits on the 700's is the ease with which you can move through the train so concentrated loading at a few doors, especially prevalent in bad weather, quickly disperses down the train. Separate units don't allow that and will always resulting in uneven loading. Also on DOO services the driver can't get back.

Always held the belief for as long as I've worked on the railway that there should never be a formation of more than two unconnected units and each of those should have a safety critical member of staff (driver / guard). Of course in the south-east it's common to get sets of 3 unconnected units with no guard at all, and the inevitable answer to issues in the rear unit being "The driver will have to get on the track and go back there".
 
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fat_boy_pete

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One the benefits on the 700's is the ease with which you can move through the train so concentrated loading at a few doors, especially prevalent in bad weather, quickly disperses down the train. Separate units don't allow that and will always resulting in uneven loading. Also on DOO services the driver can't get back.

All fair points, but today, most of the trains with that kind of loading are 2 or 3 units already with these issues. Swapping 2 x 5 for a 10 would marginally improve the 12 car situation today, with the extra setas and walk through carriages (if you are slim enough to get through the seat gap) in each 5 car unit helping too.
 

Shunter_69

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None of the peak services stop at the 4 car platforms (Mistley and Wrabness), they do stop at 8 car platforms and 2x5 or 1x10 would make no difference.
 

47421

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Reminds me, what is latest prediction re the Harwich branch shuttle? Will work be done on Manningtree bay so 5 car 720 fits? Or will GA retain some 4 car EMUs for it? Or will they use a bi-mode?
 

Shunter_69

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5 car fits at Manningtree just about with 1 set of doors locked out. The stopping point is much nearer the buffer stops than at present.

Wickford is the only issue but that should be rebuilt once planning is approved.
 

rdlover777

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looking over the seating plan for the 720/1 and i'm confused regarding the placement of the pantograph coaches. Instead of being placed at each end, ala Class 345 or Class 700, they're instead placed at position 4 and 9
Class 720 10 Car Seating.png
 

jopsuk

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if the /1s are canned in favour of all /5s, that means a small drop in the promised number of seats into Liverpool Street each morning (which was very much the number 1 priority with the internal design of these units)
 

hwl

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looking over the seating plan for the 720/1 and i'm confused regarding the placement of the pantograph coaches. Instead of being placed at each end, ala Class 345 or Class 700, they're instead placed at position 4 and 9
View attachment 82870
As covered several pages ago they are 2 x 5 car half units. Traction equipment wise 1&6, 2&7, 3&8, 4&9 and 5 &10 are identical. 1&10 have the cabs which is where the confusion comes in. The pans are ~ 120m apart so no speed related issues if they were to go elsewhere and you wanted to go to 110mph. on the 5car units the closet the pans get is ~88m so still ok for 100mph.

if the /1s are canned in favour of all /5s, that means a small drop in the promised number of seats into Liverpool Street each morning (which was very much the number 1 priority with the internal design of these units)
And the flip down seats will probably cause a riot if used too!
 
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rdlover777

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As covered several pages ago they are 2 x 5 car half units. Traction equipment wise 1&6, 2&7, 3&, 4&9 and 5 &10 are identical. 1&10 have the cabs which is where the confusion comes in. The pans are ~ 120m apart so no speed related issues if they were to go elsewhere and you wanted to go to 110mph. on the 5car units the closet the pans get is ~88m so still ok for 100mph.

Oh i see, thanks for clarifications :)

Edit: I wonder if the Class 720/6s that c2c have ordered will have the same configuration or will they have a different layout given they're a different subclass from the 720/1
 
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MP33

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I went out in what you would call my home working lunch break yesterday. Driving past I saw a 720 stop and leave Rayleigh station. I could not see through the tinted windows whether anyone was on it
 

Shunter_69

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I went out in what you would call my home working lunch break yesterday. Driving past I saw a 720 stop and leave Rayleigh station. I could not see through the tinted windows whether anyone was on it

Still testing with no passengers.
 

James James

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looking over the seating plan for the 720/1 and i'm confused regarding the placement of the pantograph coaches. Instead of being placed at each end, ala Class 345 or Class 700, they're instead placed at position 4 and 9
That might make sense from a maintenance perspective: split the units, and pantographs (and other traction equipment) are still in the same place when two halves are side by side. And presumably will be oriented to match the 5 cars.

However the 701 took a different approach: pantograph wells are on carriages 2 and 9 (so, symmetrical). And the 345 also seems to be 2 and 2nd last.
 

ashkeba

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Only 3 toilets on a 10 car train? Disappointing, should've been 5. Capacity ain't an excuse.
6 bikes in 10 cars is also too small for services to two such cycling cities and the boats to Holland. There will either be disputes over the tip up seats or many complaints.
 

jopsuk

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6 bikes in 10 cars is also too small for services to two such cycling cities and the boats to Holland. There will either be disputes over the tip up seats or many complaints.
if the /1 rumour is true, then it's OK, as all 10-car services will have two bike areas.
 

macaronlover

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5 ? Are you planning that all passengers will eat Mexican every two days ?
What kinda question is that?? Walking 2 carriages via a narrow aisle just to use a toilet, isn't convenient + another 2 if it isn't working. Other EMUs provide 6 in a 10 car unit.
 

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