Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

DannyMich2018

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Toilet provision-wise 3 loos in a 10 car unit isn't all that bad, the GA Class 745 12 car units only have five loos, many 4 car units too such as Class 331 and Class 319 only have one. Even worse the Class 345 9 car units have NO toilets despite when Crossrail opens Reading to Shenfield and Abbey Wood been a fair distance with no onboard toilets.
 
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samuelmorris

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Toilet provision-wise 3 loos in a 10 car unit isn't all that bad, the GA Class 745 12 car units only have five loos, many 4 car units too such as Class 331 and Class 319 only have one. Even worse the Class 345 9 car units have NO toilets despite when Crossrail opens Reading to Shenfield and Abbey Wood been a fair distance with no onboard toilets.
12-car 745s are of course the same length as 10-car 720s, so it is a fair downgrade. Equivalent of course to 360s which had 3 per 12-car unit, but fewer than many other 12-car EMUs it's true, including the 321s.
It's been discussed at length why 345s have no toilets.
 

hwl

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12-car 745s are of course the same length as 10-car 720s, so it is a fair downgrade. Equivalent of course to 360s which had 3 per 12-car unit, but fewer than many other 12-car EMUs it's true, including the 321s.
It's been discussed at length why 345s have no toilets.
Being pedantic a 12car 745 is about 5-6m shorter than 10 car 720.
 

TRAX

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What kinda question is that?? Walking 2 carriages via a narrow aisle just to use a toilet, isn't convenient + another 2 if it isn't working. Other EMUs provide 6 in a 10 car unit.
Wow are you sure you aren’t mixing up convenience and laziness ?
What about the two hour-long walk to get to the sole buffet coach in an intercity train ?
 
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hwl

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Even worse the Class 345 9 car units have NO toilets despite when Crossrail opens Reading to Shenfield and Abbey Wood been a fair distance with no onboard toilets.
The service pattern is basically Paddington - Shenfield (52 minutes) or Abbey Wood - Reading (78 minutes) / Heathrow (55minutes). In terms of 1 hour journeys: Reading - Liverpool Street/Moorgate or Shenfield - Ealing Broadway including change. For Crossrail all stations have toilets instead. Most crossrail journeys excluding short Zone 1 ones will be under 35minutes
 

dk1

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Wow are you sure you aren’t mixing up convenience and laziness ?
What about the two hour-long walk to get to the sole buffet coach in an intercity train ?
There will be a trolley service also on the busier trains when thing return to more normality.
 

Grumbler

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Wow are you sure you aren’t mixing up convenience and laziness ?
What about the two hour-long walk to get to the sole buffet coach in an intercity train ?
You would not make such a comment if you've had to undergo colorectal surgery. I cannot use trains without adequate toilet provision.
 

macaronlover

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Wow are you sure you aren’t mixing up convenience and laziness ?
What about the two hour-long walk to get to the sole buffet coach in an intercity train ?
Another 2 questions, which are false. Ignoring thought for passengers with low mobility. They'll enjoy walking from car 1 all the way to car 6 since the toilet in car 2 isn't working.
 

DannyMich2018

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12-car 745s are of course the same length as 10-car 720s, so it is a fair downgrade. Equivalent of course to 360s which had 3 per 12-car unit, but fewer than many other 12-car EMUs it's true, including the 321s.
It's been discussed at length why 345s have no toilets.
London to Norwich is a longer journey than most of the routes the 720's will run on (apart from occasional run to Norwich itself) so it's probably fair they need to have better toilet provision than the Class 720's. Regarding Class 345's yes it's fair to say toilets at stations but will they really be open the whole time trains run? The Class 332's on the Heathrow route have a toilet despite the short 15 min journey time and provision of toilets at Paddington! (most likely Heathrow station too?)
 

Pugwash

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12-car 745s are of course the same length as 10-car 720s, so it is a fair downgrade. Equivalent of course to 360s which had 3 per 12-car unit, but fewer than many other 12-car EMUs it's true, including the 321s.
It's been discussed at length why 345s have no toilets.
The bonus is you can walk between carriages if the toilet is out of order, the problem with the 360's was / is that if you suddenly find the toilet is out of order you need to wait until the next stop.
 
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I've just read the Timetable Planning Rules and the fact that Class 720s currently aren't permitted to attach worries me. What changes would likely happen in the future and would the timetable be affected?
 

F Great Eastern

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I assume there is work being done to allow them to be permitted?

Or is this the reason that they are being all reformed as 5 cars instead of some 10 cars as well?
 

supervc-10

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Is the reconfiguring as all 5-car confirmed?

I read that as they are not allowed to actually couple together in Liverpool street, but can run in and out as a 10-car consist, with the coupling being done elsewhere. Am I right?
 

Domh245

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I read that as they are not allowed to actually couple together in Liverpool street, but can run in and out as a 10-car consist, with the coupling being done elsewhere. Am I right?
That's how I read it, with the addition that you also can't 'double berth' them either
 

samuelmorris

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Ah OK, so presumably the system considers a 120m long unit long enough to occupy two units' spaces in old 80m terms, so when another 120m unit turns up, it's considered as coupling four unit lengths together rather than the three it actually is? Or something along those lines. That would make sense, but be operationally a bit of a nuisance and would need sorting! If they just run the 2x5-car units together all day that'd be a suitable workaround, but what's the betting, especially as things are at present, they'll just run singular 5s all day instead?
 

Bald Rick

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The platform berth track circuits at Liverpool St are in 80m chunks. A 5 car 720 occupies 160m worth, and therefore as far as the signalling system is concerned, another 5 car won’t fit in the remaining 80m.

This does not restrict 10 cars from running in/out. If it did, the 745s wouldn’t have been in either.
 

306024

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The rational for splitting and attaching in Liverpool St has always been to keep unit mileage down. That used to be the golden rule for controlling operational cost, even if more drivers were required to achieve it. Many a bid used to put a lot of effort to show cost-efficient fleet usage. Then the pendulum swings the opposite way with the fixed formation 12 car Thameslink stock, and suddenly unit mileage is not top of the agenda.

There is no operational headache in not splitting or attaching at Liverpool St, in fact it simplifies platform occupation, but it does cause a financial headache for the operator, another one which I suspect wasn’t in the original Abellio bid.
 

dk1

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The rational for splitting and attaching in Liverpool St has always been to keep unit mileage down. That used to be the golden rule for controlling operational cost, even if more drivers were required to achieve it. Many a bid used to put a lot of effort to show cost-efficient fleet usage. Then the pendulum swings the opposite way with the fixed formation 12 car Thameslink stock, and suddenly unit mileage is not top of the agenda.

There is no operational headache in not splitting or attaching at Liverpool St, in fact it simplifies platform occupation, but it does cause a financial headache for the operator, another one which I suspect wasn’t in the original Abellio bid.
I recall one of the train planners telling me that they didn't like trains operating permissivley into Liverpool St due to the performance risks associated.
 

306024

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I recall one of the train planners telling me that they didn't like trains operating permissivley into Liverpool St due to the performance risks associated.
That is true, but when the Shenfield metro service used to reduce to 4 cars off peak (seems remarkable now) the financial cost saving far outweighed any performance penalties on the odd occasion the service was disrupted. It all boils down to Operators v Accountants, and guess who usually wins ;)
 

dk1

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That is true, but when the Shenfield metro service used to reduce to 4 cars off peak (seems remarkable now) the financial cost saving far outweighed any performance penalties on the odd occasion the service was disrupted. It all boils down to Operators v Accountants, and guess who usually wins ;)
Do you remember how awful that was? Trains often severely overcrowded & punters in all the wrong areas on the platforms. Twice I seem to recall it being brought in then abolished again. Woulsnt cope now with all the Stratford traffic.
 

306024

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Hated it, argued against it, but NX was a finance firm that just happened to be running a railway. It was planned as ‘simple‘ as it could be, but splitting down 6 x 8 car trains into 11 x 4 car trains, and joining back up to 8 again was quite a challenge to plan, never mind operate.
 

Bikeman78

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I recall one of the train planners telling me that they didn't like trains operating permissivley into Liverpool St due to the performance risks associated.
The GA side runs 8 car all day now. On the GEML the splitting and joining is done at Southend etc. I can't think when I last saw units attach at Liverpool Street.
 

F Great Eastern

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There is no operational headache in not splitting or attaching at Liverpool St, in fact it simplifies platform occupation, but it does cause a financial headache for the operator, another one which I suspect wasn’t in the original Abellio bid.
I feel really sorry for anyone working in operations in Greater Anglia. The amount of pups that the bid team have sold them that they've had to deal with is so many that I've lost count.
 

Shwam3

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The track circuits at Liverpool Street are setup to allow calling on to a 4, 6, & 8 car train. 5 car 720s are equivalent to 6 cars in old money so are already compatible.
 

Class 170101

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The track circuits at Liverpool Street are setup to allow calling on to a 4, 6, & 8 car train. 5 car 720s are equivalent to 6 cars in old money so are already compatible.
But others above have said '6 car' attaching is not allowed.

Now I would have thought it would be possible because pairs of Class 313s have been at Liverpool Street but evidence so far says its not.
 

RailWonderer

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The GA side runs 8 car all day now. On the GEML the splitting and joining is done at Southend etc. I can't think when I last saw units attach at Liverpool Street.
The 15:44 and 16:14 arrivals couple up to form the 16:32 ex LST. Not sure if the diagrams have changed since.
Hated it, argued against it, but NX was a finance firm that just happened to be running a railway.
Just as GA are a marketing firm that happen to run a railway. History doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. On that note, GE hasn't seen a proper operator since 2004.
 

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