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Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud - Discussion of wider issues/rights/wrongs/etc

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SteveM70

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Apropos the comments earlier in this and other threads about people being hauled over the coals for making “the wrong sort of claim”, such as claiming delay repay for an abandoned journey.

This morning I’ve got an email from Northern about their new 8 in 28 flexi season tickets. In the FAQs there’s this:

Q - can I claim under the delay repay scheme

A - Yes. Your rights under delay repay are exactly the same. In the event that you activate a day’s worth of travel and choose not to travel at the last minute in the event of train delays, you are eligible for delay repay

Is it any wonder people are getting confused?
 
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Wallsendmag

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Apropos the comments earlier in this and other threads about people being hauled over the coals for making “the wrong sort of claim”, such as claiming delay repay for an abandoned journey.

This morning I’ve got an email from Northern about their new 8 in 28 flexi season tickets. In the FAQs there’s this:

Q - can I claim under the delay repay scheme

A - Yes. Your rights under delay repay are exactly the same. In the event that you activate a day’s worth of travel and choose not to travel at the last minute in the event of train delays, you are eligible for delay repay

Is it any wonder people are getting confused?
That is only applicable to Flexis to reinforce the no refunds after activation message. Flexis are very different in this respect .
 

SteveM70

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That is only applicable to Flexis to reinforce the no refunds after activation message. Flexis are very different in this respect .

so on some occasions you use delay repay for events when you’re not delayed. Does the industry not see how complicated it makes things for customers?
 

robbeech

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so on some occasions you use delay repay for events when you’re not delayed. Does the industry not see how complicated it makes things for customers?
They see it, they're not all massively incompetent, but they are uninterested in doing anything about it despite the fact that in extreme examples, their advice and instruction will see people with a criminal record.
 

vinnym70

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A - Yes. Your rights under delay repay are exactly the same. In the event that you activate a day’s worth of travel and choose not to travel at the last minute in the event of train delays, you are eligible for delay repay
Surely this is a crazy statement? If you choose not to travel how can you possibly know how long you might have been delayed for? Not everyone is going to delve into sites like RTT to see what might have been if you had travelled. Appreciate this is probably a slightly different construct for the new flexi tickets but it still seems a dangerous route per robbeech's comment in post 214.
 

WesternLancer

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Surely this is a crazy statement? If you choose not to travel how can you possibly know how long you might have been delayed for? Not everyone is going to delve into sites like RTT to see what might have been if you had travelled. Appreciate this is probably a slightly different construct for the new flexi tickets but it still seems a dangerous route per robbeech's comment in post 214.
Does it not mean that you can get the full refund on the basis of choosing not to travel due to train being delayed (a longstanding right to 100% ticket refund IIRC)? But you use the D-R process to claim it?
 

vinnym70

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That's my point though - in the GA fraud thread, people have been penalised for claiming delay repay on a season when, in fact, they chose not to travel.
That suggests to me that the industry (or at least some TOCs) regard refunds and delay repay to be totally separate entities and the customer has to know which option is relevant for them.
As the flex-seasons seem to be all smart-ticket based, I would assume any delay repay would be expected to be validated versus tap in/tap out times.
Either that or the Northern FAQ SteveM70 posted (#211) is just badly worded.
 

Fawkes Cat

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That's my point though - in the GA fraud thread, people have been penalised for claiming delay repay on a season when, in fact, they chose not to travel.
That suggests to me that the industry (or at least some TOCs) regard refunds and delay repay to be totally separate entities and the customer has to know which option is relevant for them.
As the flex-seasons seem to be all smart-ticket based, I would assume any delay repay would be expected to be validated versus tap in/tap out times.
Either that or the Northern FAQ SteveM70 posted (#211) is just badly worded.
The whole thing is undoubtedly a mess. But isn’t this particular point because ’flex-seasons’ aren’t actually a sort of season ticket but actually a number of day return tickets (or just possibly day rangers) sold at a discount? Once you have validated your flex-season for a day you are in just the same position as someone who bought a walk-up day ticket.

Of course, someone who bought a walk-up ticket and then couldn’t travel because of disruption wouldn’t generally claim through DR but would get a refund: as I first said, the whole thing is undoubtedly a mess.
 

43096

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as I first said, the whole thing is undoubtedly a mess.
Of course it's a mess, probably deliberately so. That way - making the process as convoluted, inconsistent and impenetrable as possible - many will be put off claiming so won't claim, and those that do can be accused of fraud for using the wrong process.
 

vinnym70

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But isn’t this particular point because ’flex-seasons’ aren’t actually a sort of season ticket but actually a number of day return tickets (or just possibly day rangers) sold at a discount? Once you have validated your flex-season for a day you are in just the same position as someone who bought a walk-up day ticket.
And that's going to confuse people who used to be season ticket holders but will now move to flexi-seasons due to new working practises when they return to the workplace.
I'd assume ex-season holders are going to account for almost all of the interest in the flexi-seasons.
 

35B

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Of course it's a mess, probably deliberately so. That way - making the process as convoluted, inconsistent and impenetrable as possible - many will be put off claiming so won't claim, and those that do can be accused of fraud for using the wrong process.
I think you're being unfair in attributing to malice what can simply be explained by incompetence. In this case, the imcompetence of the government department introducing a whole new category of ticket without allowing time for the practical implications to be worked through.
 

SteveM70

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I think you're being unfair in attributing to malice what can simply be explained by incompetence. In this case, the imcompetence of the government department introducing a whole new category of ticket without allowing time for the practical implications to be worked through.

It was a requirement in the franchise let in 2016, so it’s hardly been rushed
 

vinnym70

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Which franchise? All of them?
GA definitely. Some serious procrastination on their part which I suspect means the financials never stacked up for them and the regulator wasn't inclined to punish.
Outside of COVID, the requirement/expectation to be in the office every day of the week seems to have been on the decline for quite some time now which makes an annual season less and less attractive.
Very happy to see the flexi-seasons come into existence but I'm still waiting to see the pricing detail to see how it stacks up because they're long overdue IMO.
 

SteveM70

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So that’s one franchise what about the rest, we haven’t all had five years warning

My post was pointing out that Northern are giving advice which goes against the generally held industry view of what is in and out of the scope of delay repay. I posted it in this thread because of the instances of GA pulling people up for using delay repay for abandoned journeys. I’ve never mentioned “the rest”, just a view that from a customer perspective some consistency would be helpful
 

Wallsendmag

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My post was pointing out that Northern are giving advice which goes against the generally held industry view of what is in and out of the scope of delay repay. I posted it in this thread because of the instances of GA pulling people up for using delay repay for abandoned journeys. I’ve never mentioned “the rest”, just a view that from a customer perspective some consistency would be helpful
This is a new product with new rules and an awkward question about what to do once a Day Pass has been activated but you can’t travel due to disruption
 

jon0844

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This is a new product with new rules and an awkward question about what to do once a Day Pass has been activated but you can’t travel due to disruption

I'd have thought that as long as you haven't travelled after activation, you could get a full refund very easily. As you need to tap in/out at every station, or show your barcode to staff or use at a gate, it would know if you had actually used it. Indeed, it could be possible to deactivate your barcode (and if you were silly enough to attempt to still use it, would be treated as not having a ticket and even considered for fraud depending on the circumstances).

Likewise, as the industry moves over to smart ticketing and barcode tickets, I can see that Delay Repay in the future will be easier to 'police' based on actual taps in/out - and even if a gate is open, there will still be a need to validate the ticket to show you were there.

What this means for those who see a delay online and don't even bother to go to the station, I do not know, but I've already said that there is likely an expectation that you turn up to allow the railway to try and find you a method of travel that reduces the delay (taxi, RRB, a stop order on a train etc).

The T&Cs of Delay Repay will need to be looked at for the entire railway in due course, and at some point those websites that tell you all the delays you can claim for will be rendered obsolete.
 

35B

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I'd have thought that as long as you haven't travelled after activation, you could get a full refund very easily. As you need to tap in/out at every station, or show your barcode to staff or use at a gate, it would know if you had actually used it. Indeed, it could be possible to deactivate your barcode (and if you were silly enough to attempt to still use it, would be treated as not having a ticket and even considered for fraud depending on the circumstances).

Likewise, as the industry moves over to smart ticketing and barcode tickets, I can see that Delay Repay in the future will be easier to 'police' based on actual taps in/out - and even if a gate is open, there will still be a need to validate the ticket to show you were there.

What this means for those who see a delay online and don't even bother to go to the station, I do not know, but I've already said that there is likely an expectation that you turn up to allow the railway to try and find you a method of travel that reduces the delay (taxi, RRB, a stop order on a train etc).

The T&Cs of Delay Repay will need to be looked at for the entire railway in due course, and at some point those websites that tell you all the delays you can claim for will be rendered obsolete.
The emboldened bit is predictable given some views, but has some interesting implications about the standard of service that the railway may be expected to reach if it requires travellers to attend in order to qualify for DR. It would certainly raise the bar for the standard of care and diligence that would be expected from the railway to mitigate an individual's delay if they deny the individual contractual remedies if that individual seeks to mitigate the impact on themselves. It could also make the provision of information and service harder at times of disruption.
 

Wallsendmag

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I'd have thought that as long as you haven't travelled after activation, you could get a full refund very easily. As you need to tap in/out at every station, or show your barcode to staff or use at a gate, it would know if you had actually used it. Indeed, it could be possible to deactivate your barcode (and if you were silly enough to attempt to still use it, would be treated as not having a ticket and even considered for fraud depending on the circumstances).

Likewise, as the industry moves over to smart ticketing and barcode tickets, I can see that Delay Repay in the future will be easier to 'police' based on actual taps in/out - and even if a gate is open, there will still be a need to validate the ticket to show you were there.

What this means for those who see a delay online and don't even bother to go to the station, I do not know, but I've already said that there is likely an expectation that you turn up to allow the railway to try and find you a method of travel that reduces the delay (taxi, RRB, a stop order on a train etc).

The T&Cs of Delay Repay will need to be looked at for the entire railway in due course, and at some point those websites that tell you all the delays you can claim for will be rendered obsolete.
Never thought of something that simple, just one problem can you let me know where to tap in at Durham oh and while you’re at it where do I tap out at York?
 

35B

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Never thought of something that simple, just one problem can you let me know where to tap in at Durham oh and while you’re at it where do I tap out at York?
I was also wondering about crossing season boundaries - if these are seasons, then presumably the rules about fares from the boundary point will apply and it won't be necessary to change trains to change ticket?
 

jon0844

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Never thought of something that simple, just one problem can you let me know where to tap in at Durham oh and while you’re at it where do I tap out at York?

The gateline I'd expect, or a standalone validator for ungated stations, which will be installed when cards/barcodes go national. Seems pretty simple to me.

I was also wondering about crossing season boundaries - if these are seasons, then presumably the rules about fares from the boundary point will apply and it won't be necessary to change trains to change ticket?

At the end of the day, with checks carried out on trains, if you didn't validate/activate your ticket (or cancelled it and travelled anyway) then you'd be treated like any fare evader if caught within that area of validity.

If you are combining tickets, fair enough (unless the DfT seriously shakes things up) but that's up to the railway to work out.
 

ainsworth74

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GA have posted an article on their website about this today talking about the successful prosecution for fraud for one person who claimed £35,000 in delay repay in two weeks (they must have been claiming for every train delayed!!) and also reveals that they've apparently recovered £500,000 from people during this exercise:

Delay repay fraudster given prison sentence​


A man who fraudulently claimed £35,000 in delay repay compensation from Greater Anglia in just two weeks has been given an eight-month prison sentence, suspended for 18 months.

Michael Parker, 24, of Godstow Road, Greenwich, London, claimed delay repay compensation multiple times using the same ticket during a period of disruption on the Greater Anglia network in December 2019.

Fraud investigators at Greater Anglia uncovered the scam when they were analysing delay repay claims during the pandemic and found that Parker had used multiple aliases when making the claims.

The British Transport Police investigated the case, leading to prosecution.

Parker pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud at Inner London Crown Court, sitting at the Royal Courts of Justice.

He was given an eight-month prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, a 25-day community order and 50 hours unpaid work.

Kim Bucknell, head of revenue protection at Greater Anglia, said: “We want customers who genuinely are delayed if their journey is disrupted to claim delay repay compensation, but we will not tolerate people who abuse the system.

“In the last two years we have recovered £500,000 from people who have fraudulently claimed delay repay.

“During the pandemic, when we had fewer customers, we analysed claims from the whole of 2019 and early 2020 and pursued everyone who had put in a false claim.

“Since then we have also tightened up our delay replay compensation process to make it more difficult for people trying to make fraudulent claims and have rejected tens of thousands of pounds of false claims.

“Claiming fraudulently is the same as stealing from Greater Anglia – and it leaves the company with less money for investment which could result in fares going up for everyone.”


I wonder how much of that £500,000 was from actual fraudsters (like Mr Parker) and how much was from people who did nothing actually wrong but paid up to avoid the risk of a prosecution...

Hat tip to @alholmes for spotting this and bringing to the Forum Staff's attention.
 

Watershed

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GA have posted an article on their website about this today talking about the successful prosecution for fraud for one person who claimed £35,000 in delay repay in two weeks (they must have been claiming for every train delayed!!) and also reveals that they've apparently recovered £500,000 from people during this exercise:




I wonder how much of that £500,000 was from actual fraudsters (like Mr Parker) and how much was from people who did nothing actually wrong but paid up to avoid the risk of a prosecution...

Hat tip to @alholmes for spotting this and bringing to the Forum Staff's attention.
I see the article makes the usual lazy comment about fares going up as a result of the alleged fraud. This is of course completely nonsensical, as fare increases are set by the government and are linked to inflation, not to the level of Delay Repay fraud or fare evasion.

During the period in question, any frauds was simply increasing Greater Anglia's losses (the situation is slightly different now).

The title also claims that someone was sentenced to prison, but in reality they haven't served a day behind bars. There's also no indication that they have been required to pay back the money - and they pled guilty, so the strength of Greater Anglia's evidence wasn't tested.

Overall, it reads like a rather weak press release that tries to make this whole investigation sound much more grandiose than it actually was.
 

AlterEgo

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I think the ultimate aim of the scheme was two fold. One, to recover fraudulently claimed delay repay, and two, to get one or two marquee cases like the one mentioned for press reasons.

It’s important to note the case involved does revolve around the blatantly dishonest practice of using aliases to make multiple claims, which is a step above the misuse we saw come to light in the other thread.
 
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