Greater Anglia legal Action?

[Mag_seven]

This is just another nail in the coffin for franchising - lets renationalise!

 

[ainsworth74]

Fundamentally, the problem is not that the DfT are giving in to Greater Anglia, it's that they lack the capability to manage the highly compelx and often weirdly 'inputs-based' commercial contracts they've let.

That's been quite obvious since they made an utter farce of the 2012 InterCity West Coast franchise. And it's just become more and more obvious that fundamentally the DfT lacks the capability to manage and deliver these insanely complex contracts (which are, of course, complex by the Department's own making).

It's thought by many that the CrossCountry competition was cancelled because there was only one serious bidder. If that does not set the alarm bells ringing, nothing will.

My alarm bells have been ringing since the SWT franchise competition only attracted two bidders. SWT at the time being one of the only franchises that was turning a profit and needed no subsidy...

If the GA franchise fails then it continues to show that franchising as it is now and has been for the last decade or so is fundamentally flawed. We've probably already had one "competition" that ended up with one bidder (XC) and it can only be a matter of time before we end up with a "competition" with no bidders. And then what does the DfT do?

 

[DarloRich]

This kind of thing is simply a part of the game. It is to be expected.

 

[HH]

I thought that bus costs had been covered by Schedule 4 of the track access agreement since the start of Control Period 4 (almost ten years ago now). I appreciate that the calculation is formulaic (rather than a negotiation or ‘emerging costs’ in most cases) but engineering works on the Great Eastern are not exactly a new thing. Presumably all bidders had a pretty fair idea of what they were likely to get?

You are quite correct. Whether it covers GA fully or not is impossible to say, but CP6 is lowering compensation slightly, so in general it has more than covered TOC's bus costs. Of course, it doesn't cover other costs (e.g. staff, publicity), but I doubt whether TOCs are going to get into trouble over costs associated with RoUs (possessions).

OTOH almost all TOCs don't have a clue about Sch4 compensation - they have little idea whether what they are getting is correct, or not.

 

[HH]

That's been quite obvious since they made an utter farce of the 2012 InterCity West Coast franchise. And it's just become more and more obvious that fundamentally the DfT lacks the capability to manage and deliver these insanely complex contracts (which are, of course, complex by the Department's own making).

My alarm bells have been ringing since the SWT franchise competition only attracted two bidders. SWT at the time being one of the only franchises that was turning a profit and needed no subsidy...

If the GA franchise fails then it continues to show that franchising as it is now and has been for the last decade or so is fundamentally flawed. We've probably already had one "competition" that ended up with one bidder (XC) and it can only be a matter of time before we end up with a "competition" with no bidders. And then what does the DfT do?

I now don't expect any more contracts to be let under the current process. Between the Williams Report, Brexit and other issues I expect everything to be put on hold for a couple of years. Look for an announcement around 29 March...

 

[47421]

That's been quite obvious since they made an utter farce of the 2012 InterCity West Coast franchise. And it's just become more and more obvious that fundamentally the DfT lacks the capability to manage and deliver these insanely complex contracts (which are, of course, complex by the Department's own making).



My alarm bells have been ringing since the SWT franchise competition only attracted two bidders. SWT at the time being one of the only franchises that was turning a profit and needed no subsidy...

If the GA franchise fails then it continues to show that franchising as it is now and has been for the last decade or so is fundamentally flawed. We've probably already had one "competition" that ended up with one bidder (XC) and it can only be a matter of time before we end up with a "competition" with no bidders. And then what does the DfT do?

Indeed, and the losing bidder on SWT must be very pleased they lost.

I follow GA as it is my TOC. Per below there are multiple, presumably carefully negotiated, "franchisee commitments" that just seem to have been ignored, and which look like they were never likely to be met, but which no one seems to be very concerned about. I sense that it is the same on SouthWestern, Northern and TPE. Put another way, when was the last time a franchise competition led to a successful franchise, ie one where franchisee commitments, eg re new trains and services, were largely met and franchisee made a decent return?

A selection of GA Franchise Commitments:

• By 31 Oct 18 - 27 x 317 to be fitted with ASDO and 96 platforms to have ASDO beacons. Seems to have been abandoned
• No date specified, but must mean by 31 Dec 19 latest - 27 x 317 to have PRM mods. Only one sent away so far so no prospect of 27 being done by deadline
• "The Franchisee shall implement the Approved Detailed Design for each of the Redevelopment Stations in order that the redevelopment work is completed in accordance with the Approved Detailed Design by no later than: (a) 31 December 2019 in the case of Broxbourne Station, Cheshunt Station, Harlow Town Station and Southend Victoria Station; (b) 31 December 2020 in the case of Cambridge Station". Is this happening? Dont see any evidence of it on the ground
• "By no later than the next Fares Setting Round occurring after 1 May 2018, the Franchisee shall make available to passengers for the remainder of the Franchise Period Anytime Flex Carnet and the -Off Peak Flex Carnet". Never happened
  
• "By no later than 30 April 2019, the Franchisee shall launch a six (6) month pilot utilising near field communication". What are the chances??
• "By no later than 30 January 2019, the Franchisee shall use its best endeavours to implement cloud based post-pay ticketing on Passenger Services between London Stations and Southend, Norwich or Cambridge ". Nope
• TSR2 May 19 - extra TPH off peak to Hert East and Southend Vic, extra TPH Liv St to Norwich (extension of Ipswich semi fast), Norwich Camb extended to Stansted Airport all day. Nope, Nope, Nope and Nope
• "infrastructure works at each of Hertford East, Wickford, Manningtree, Kings Lynn, Elsenham, Ware, St Margarets and Enfield Lock Stations as are necessary to enable any Passenger Services comprised of 10 rolling stock vehicles to call at such Stations by no later than 1 September 2018". Nope - NR have this down as a 2021 event. No info on what stock is expected to run to Hert East until then
  
• STAR, originally due Dec 18, deferred by NR to May 19, now extra services not expected until Sept 19 earliest
• By 31 Dec 2018 ontrain wifi on entire existing fleet. Nope
• TSR3 May 20 - extra 1144 services a week. No chance. I would be surprised if it was half that number.
  

And then there is the 720 mess, which gets worse by the day.
And the finance mess, with £80m of the £280m buffer spent by March 2018, and lots more expected to be spent by March 19.

 

[HH]

There is a Carnet, it is 'Smart' to Liverpool Street only. Don't know anything else about it, as it's no use to me.

 

[samuelmorris]

I can only assume the WA services will become 5-car only excluding Stansted Express, eventually perhaps extending to 10 in 2021/2022 when the NR works have taken place. The full 720 fleet is unlikely to be in service until well into 2021 so that would help availability on the GE side.

 

[Wivenswold]

Home working has rather exploded over the last 3-5 years as fibre optic broadband has spread. Before that many companies in the city (certainly in the Insurance Sector) tended to allow managers to work from home but I experience great difficulty getting people together in the office for meetings now.

Increasing rents have also put pressure on companies to seek ways of reducing floor space by encouraging flexible working. So that's another factor.

It was all rather inevitable and I've raised this repeatedly with the DfT and also Abellio when the new franchise was announced (in relation to their "pack 'em in" Aventra layouts).

 

[hwl]

I now don't expect any more contracts to be let under the current process. Between the Williams Report, Brexit and other issues I expect everything to be put on hold for a couple of years. Look for an announcement around 29 March...

Including SE and EM that are currently in the works?

 

[hwl]

The problem with derogations is they will erode trust in the rule of law. We are becoming very flimsy in this regard in the UK at the moment and that is a set of floodgates we really do not want to open.

If derogations are to be used they need to be:
- strictly time limited;
- not without penalty for the party/parties that has failed to achieve the legal requirement;
- paired with a measures to provide a level of recompense and restitution to the injured party. The most logical measures might be free travel for those with a Disabled Persons Railcard plus additional personnel to help those passengers during the period of the derogation.

Most of the issues can ultimately be traced back to DfT though in the case of the English franchise (or TfW in the case of Wales ignoring advice.)
Some of the derogations will be minor so we shouldn't get to obsessive about them e.g. Door Button positioning being out by a few cm on satock that will be replaced in the next few years.

 

[47421]

There is a Carnet, it is 'Smart' to Liverpool Street only. Don't know anything else about it, as it's no use to me.

Its anytime only, does not satisfy FA commitment to be off peak as well. Also only available on phone, FA says "capable of fulfilment on ITSO Certified Smartmedia at Stations "

 

[47421]

I can only assume the WA services will become 5-car only excluding Stansted Express, eventually perhaps extending to 10 in 2021/2022 when the NR works have taken place. The full 720 fleet is unlikely to be in service until well into 2021 so that would help availability on the GE side.

That would be sub-optimal to say the least. Currently 3x peak Camb are 12x379, and two of them in morning are usually SRO from Audley End. All other peak services are 8x317. In fact WestAnglia has become a pretty reliable 8 car minimum railway over last couple of years since GA got some extra exGN 317s.

In a sensible world STAR and Hertford East would be taken over by TfL and integrated with WA inners using a common 8 car 710 fleet (Stratford to Stortford could run to Hert East or Brox instead, with an additional hourly Stortford to Liv St to pick up Harlow Mill and Roydon stops). That would do away with need for lots of expensive infrastructure work on Hert East branch, and make use of the 8 car platforms on STAR. To Cambridge I think it is just Elsenham which needs infrastructure work for 10 car 720s as it has signal at end of platform and SDO with rear off platform will block a busy road crossing, all other platforms are either already 12 car or can SDO without major issues.

 

[ainsworth74]

Let's stick to the topic which is potential legal action by Abellio not future service provision on the GA franchise.

 

[HH]

Including SE and EM that are currently in the works?

Yes, that's my guess, based on the noises not coming from GMH.

 

[hwl]

Yes, that's my guess, based on the noises not coming from GMH.

I put lack of noise on other matters that I deal with GMH on from being down to anyone they could find being rounded up and shipped off to deal with Brexit with no sense to be had until at least 8 weeks after...
RDG, ORR, NR and RSSB seem to be functioning normally.

 

[philthetube]

latest ORR stats here https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/39983/passenger-rail-usage-2018-19-q2.pdf
this is for July to Sept 18 as compared with July to Sept 17

latest update to this series due 14 March 2019

This shows 3.8% passenger kilometer increase in London and South East. But season tic journeys fell to lowest level since 2010/11

Guessing that pence per mile paid by none season holders will be higher than season holders? any relevance to any case?

 

[Class 170101]

• TSR2 May 19 - extra TPH off peak to Hert East and Southend Vic, extra TPH Liv St to Norwich (extension of Ipswich semi fast), Norwich Camb extended to Stansted Airport all day. Nope, Nope, Nope and Nope
• TSR3 May 20 - extra 1144 services a week. No chance. I would be surprised if it was half that number.

The first three of your argument for TSR2 have been scuppered by NR over Level Crossings and previously discussed elsewhere on this board. In the case of Norwich to Stansted I have previously noted the major constraints on this route.

For TSR2 and 3 the fallout from the timetable issues last summer means NR are now managing their workload (whether the way are doing so is agreeable or not is another matter) and commitments made to the DfT by operators to be delivered by specific dates seem to be no longer guaranteed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's thought by many that the CrossCountry competition was cancelled because there was only one serious bidder. If that does not set the alarm bells ringing, nothing will.

My alarm bells started ringing when Brian Souter got a £90m bailout at EMT...in the good times.

The whole process has always been fundamentally flawed and always will be. Franchising does not work.

If the Tories really want private sector involvement (and God knows they do) then concession schemes are the only sensible way forward.

 

[Class 170101]

If the Tories really want private sector involvement (and God knows they do) then concession schemes are the only sensible way forward.

I don't see how that works. The operator of the concession only gets a fee for operating it. No private sector innovation?

 

[anme]

I don't see how that works. The operator of the concession only gets a fee for operating it. No private sector innovation?

What private sector innovation do we honestly get in the current system?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The operator of the concession only gets a fee for operating it. No private sector innovation?

What innovation do we get now?

It works on Merseyrail and LO.

 

[Dr Hoo]

What private sector innovation do we honestly get in the current system?

In the context of this thread the concept of a total fleet renewal, bi-modes and new service patterns, etc. came out of inviting private sector ideas.
It is the difficulty of securing the successful implementation of those ideas for a wide variety of reasons (including, it would appear, some starry eyed thinking about their practical deliverability but also thing like unforeseen changes in working patterns, late delivery/acceptance of rolling stock nationally, delays to schemes like Ely North Junction upgrade, delays to platform re-modelling at Liverpool Street, endless engineering works driving away a lot of weekend business, alleged DfT micromanagement, etc.) that is frustrating.

 

[anme]

In the context of this thread the concept of a total fleet renewal, bi-modes and new service patterns, etc. came out of inviting private sector ideas.

Total fleet renewal and new service patterns have been very successfully achieved by London Overground using a concession system. And bi-mode trains are hardly a new idea.

 

[Class 170101]

delays to schemes like Ely North Junction upgrade, delays to platform re-modelling at Liverpool Street, endless engineering works driving away a lot of weekend business,

The view that I get is that NR seem to do one task at at time in any given possession and feel they can come back and keep asking for more access. Until NR do more than one task in a possesion and the operators insist on this weekend travel will be disrupted.

The previous MD had the right idea of only allowing eight weekends per year of all day blocks with some extended maintenance at the start and end of the day on Sundays when traffic was at its lightest. I would say the execution was questionable, eight weekends was probably too few but the current number of blocks is far too many.

 

[HH]

Total fleet renewal and new service patterns have been very successfully achieved by London Overground using a concession system. And bi-mode trains are hardly a new idea.

And tri-mode?

 

[221129]

It'd be interesting to know who that final bidder was, then. I agree that it is clear that the current model of franchising is unsustainable. I've never understood why it wasn't simply agreed that the franchisee couldn't just be let to have all of the first £xm profit, and then the DfT a set percentage of the rest.

It was the incumbent. And they were the only bidder.

 

[anme]

And tri-mode?

And quad-mode?
I don't think UK TOCs have been the first to think of any combination of power sources. They don't actually make their own trains.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In the context of this thread the concept of a total fleet renewal, bi-modes and new service patterns, etc. came out of inviting private sector ideas.

The IEP was designed and specified by DfT not the operators. Likewise the new fleet of Overground trains have been designed amd specified by TfL.

The only innovation from the private sector for IEP was Beardy giving the trains a crap name.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Until NR do more than one task in a possesion and the operators insist on this weekend travel will be disrupted.

NR used to do this and got huge amounts of flack when extremely complex engineering works overran. The more complex a job is, the more likely it is that it will over run.

NR can't win, really.