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Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

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Wivenswold

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A few more 321s likely to be out and about than normal due to Christmas shopping at Westfield (and elsewhere) if its anything like last year.
Wow, people still go to shops to get Christmas presents.

Worth avoiding the line next Saturday then. West Ham playing at home to Chelsea at 12:30 and Westfield rammed to the rafters with shoppers. Let's hope there's no 4 cars out and about.
 
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chubs

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Why are so many 170's out of service at the moment?

It's been a long time since I had to do Norwich to Cambridge in a 156 (during a strike in mid 00's I think) but that was not fun.
 

Wivenswold

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One of the 170's is being refurbished at the moment, our contributor at Norwich Depot will know more.
 

F Great Eastern

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Wow, people still go to shops to get Christmas presents.

Worth avoiding the line next Saturday then. West Ham playing at home to Chelsea at 12:30 and Westfield rammed to the rafters with shoppers. Let's hope there's no 4 cars out and about.

Been manic for last few weeks on a Saturday, was manic again this morning, massive passenger transfer at Colchester between a loco hauled set and an 8 car EMU which I could only find a seat on opposite the toilet. People struggled to board at Witham whilst the folly of a class 90 running non stop to LST half empty continues.

This is going to become even worse if when the new trains come the 8 cars are replaced with 5 cars unless they start stopping the FLIRTs at Stratford or rejig the timetable.
 

Wivenswold

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Well the timetable is being rejigged but the situation needs monitoring. Now the fight for better seating and seat-back tables on the 720s has worked the next big development is close scrutiny of the draft new timetable from 2019. The sooner a lovely mole drops a copy on here, the sooner we can start the fight for a service that is suitable.
 

dk1

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Been manic for last few weeks on a Saturday, was manic again this morning, massive passenger transfer at Colchester between a loco hauled set and an 8 car EMU which I could only find a seat on opposite the toilet. People struggled to board at Witham whilst the folly of a class 90 running non stop to LST half empty continues.

Many Intercity services have been full & standing this morning after Colchester with one being from Ipswich. The sooner they all run non-stop between Colchester & Stratford the better. Decembers 0800/0900/1000 (SO) up road are to be welcomed.
 

F Great Eastern

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Many Intercity services have been full & standing this morning after Colchester with one being from Ipswich. The sooner they all run non-stop between Colchester & Stratford the better. Decembers 0800/0900/1000 (SO) up road are to be welcomed.

My experience at Colchester at weekends over the last 6 weeks is there has been a large number of passengers getting off class 90s at Colchester to change to an EMU and rather less getting on there to the MK3s. I'm not saying that's for all trains all of the time but that has been my observation. Several times I have got off an MK3 rake at Colchester where far more people were getting off than on.

The thing is a large percentage of those people on the EMU's are getting off at Stratford and getting a seat at Colchester on those is by no means certain and by Witham people struggle to get on and sometimes are turned away and there is I'd estimate 50-60 people per carriage standing if not more. What you are seeing currently is probably influenced by Christmas shopping, but what you say is not at all representative of what I've seen on MK3s in November in general.

This will be a serious problem if they don't re-jig the timetable and they replace the 8 car 321/360 with a 5 car 720. Sure they'll gain about 16 seats but they'll lose a massive amount of standing room as the train is 25% shorter on trains which are already absolutely jam packed full of standees. The 10 car FLIRTS will have a large amount of extra capacity versus the MK3s so maybe if they made all the FLIRTS call at Stratford, they could get away with the 5 car EMUs replacing the 321/360s.
 

dk1

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My experience at Colchester at weekends over the last 6 weeks is there has been a large number of passengers getting off class 90s at Colchester to change to an EMU and rather less getting on there to the MK3s. I'm not saying that's for all trains all of the time but that has been my observation. Several times I have got off an MK3 rake at Colchester where far more people were getting off than on.

The thing is a large percentage of those people on the EMU's are getting off at Stratford and getting a seat at Colchester on those is by no means certain and by Witham people struggle to get on and sometimes are turned away and there is I'd estimate 50-60 people per carriage standing if not more. What you are seeing currently is probably influenced by Christmas shopping, but what you say is not at all representative of what I've seen on MK3s in November in general.

This will be a serious problem if they don't re-jig the timetable and they replace the 8 car 321/360 with a 5 car 720. Sure they'll gain about 16 seats but they'll lose a massive amount of standing room as the train is 25% shorter on trains which are already absolutely jam packed full of standees. The 10 car FLIRTS will have a large amount of extra capacity versus the MK3s so maybe if they made all the FLIRTS call at Stratford, they could get away with the 5 car EMUs replacing the 321/360s.

I can assure you that there is very little in the way of spare capacity on many Norwich trains. These are longer distance services & unlike the shorter journey EMUs do not lend themselves to crowding. Intercity should be more relaxed & comfortable. Why on earth would you want to then swamp these with passengers from the likes of Chelmsford when they have far more choice? Saturday morning catering Income is also very high & easy access to this vehicle is good for business.
 

chubs

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I miss the Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester and Liverpool St only IC fasts....
 

F Great Eastern

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I can assure you that there is very little in the way of spare capacity on many Norwich trains.

I'm telling you what I see, if you don't believe me that is your choice but I know what I saw and have experienced over the last few weeks at the times I have traveled, it's an ongoing issue on Saturday's in the morning .

The issue I'm talking about is mostly related to passengers from Intercity services from Norwich/Ipswich changing at Colchester to get a train to Stratford which then causes overcrowding on the EMUs which then can't even service Chelmsford properly because they are almost impossible to board.

These are longer distance services & unlike the shorter journey EMUs do not lend themselves to crowding. Intercity should be more relaxed & comfortable.

So what you're saying that as long as the passengers on the Intercity service have a relaxed journey and in a carriage that is not full, we should just forget about the people who physically may not be able to board a train in the future because the capacity has been cut because they don't matter and should be treated as second class citizens?

Based on what we heard so far the intercity services will get a substantial capacity increase whilst the 8 car EMU services will get a capacity cut they can ill-afford which will result in people being left behind, adding an extra stop at Stratford on all IC sets is very sensible since they should be able to take it without any issues considering the FLIRT will give a substantial capacity uplift to balance out the capacity cut on the EMU services which are sometimes now impossible to board let alone in a few years time when the train lengths will be cut by 25%.

Why on earth would you want to then swamp these with passengers from the likes of Chelmsford when they have far more choice? Saturday morning catering Income is also very high & easy access to this vehicle is good for business.

Where did I mention Chelmsford? That is an extraordinarily poor strawman argument you're conducting here. I only mentioned Stratford and I really don't appreciate being misrepresented and having words put in my mouth that I did not say, but to be absloutely clear I do not and never have suggested that IC services should have any other additional calls other than at Stratford.
 
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dk1

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I miss the Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester and Liverpool St only IC fasts....

Dont we all :D

I'm telling you what I see, if you don't believe me that is your choice but I know what I saw and have experienced over the last few weeks at the times I have traveled.

The issue I'm talking about is mostly related to passengers from Intercity services from Norwich/Ipswich changing at Colchester to get a train to Stratford which then causes overcrowding on the EMUs which then can't even service Chelmsford properly because they are almost impossible to board.



So what you're saying that as long as the passengers on the Intercity service have a relaxed journey and in a carriage that is not full, we should just forget about the people who physically may not be able to board a train in the future because the capacity has been cut because they don't matter and should be treated as second class citizens?

Based on what we heard so far the intercity services will get a substantial capacity increase whilst the 8 car EMU services will get a capacity cut they can ill-afford which will result in people being left behind, adding an extra stop at Stratford on all IC sets is very sensible since they should be able to take it without any issues considering the FLIRT will give a substantial capacity uplift to balance out the capacity cut on the EMU services which are sometimes now impossible to board let alone in a few years time when the train lengths will be cut by 25%.



Where did I mention Chelmsford? That is an extraordinarily poor strawman argument you're conducting here. I only mentioned Stratford and I really don't appreciate being misrepresented and having words put in my mouth that I did not say.

Gosh there's so much to take in there that Im not sure I can even be bothered to start. There will be extra EMUs starting from Colchester on Saturday's in place of the proper fast Intercity starting Norwich at 0800, 0900 & 1000 in a couple of weeks time so no issues with connecting punters on them. These trains all stop at Stratford anyway. Those for the rest down the line are used to commuting in busy EMUs anyway & are only onboard half an hour or so & have another train not far behind. You mentioned Witham & I mentioned Chelmsford as thankfully we don't call at the former most of the time.
 
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Given I spend my life on Norwich intercities I feel for once I have some expertise here. To be honest FGE I don't know how you have managed to come to your conclusion, Up road intercities never leave Colchester emptier than they were before arrival! The move to take out those stops is a god send, it will massively help me run those particular services to time and avoid knock on delays. It's good for everyone.
 

F Great Eastern

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Gosh there's so much to take in there that Im not sure I can even be bothered to start. There will be extra EMUs starting from Colchester on Saturday's in place of the proper fast Intercity starting Norwich at 0800, 0900 & 1000 in a couple of weeks time so no issues with connecting punters on them. These trains all stop at Stratford anyway. Those for the rest down the line are used to commuting in busy EMUs anyway & are only onboard half an hour or so & have another train not far behind. You mentioned Witham & I mentioned Chelmsford as thankfully we don't call at the former most of the time.

Where did I say an intercity train should stop at Witham? I didn't. Please stop misrepresentation of my posts and the constant strawman responses because honestly, despite what people who are going from Norwich, Diss, Ipswich and Colchester to Liverpool Street think, there are actually other passengers that GA also serve.

There is a difference between the fast IC and the non fast IC services at the weekend southbound, since the fast services obviously serve less stops and they don't have any branch lines feeding into them at Colchester whereas the non fast IC service normally has a Thorpe Le Soken service feeding into it in addition to the extra stops which obviously means that is liable to be more busy.

I'll illustrate the issue with the fast IC service not stopping at Stratford using a train I've taken often:
- 08:30 NOR to LST calling at Diss, Ipswich, Manningtree and Colchester arrives into Colchester at 09:28
- Large number of people get off, switch to the 09:33 to LST which calls at many stations inc Stratford
- Leaving Colchester the 8 car EMU has maybe a handful of seats at best.
- At Witham, there is no chance of getting a seat and on one occasion people were left behind
- Chelmsford at the very best it will be like sardines
- Stratford the train will empty out somewhat and there may even be the odd seat free.

The thing is that if you stop the xx:30 from Norwich at Stratford as an additional call, sure the IC train will be busier, but it won't be full since in my experience outside peak on a Saturday the non fast IC sets are always much fuller than the fast ones when leaving Colchester. There's no need to stop such services at Chelmsford or Witham, merely just the addition of the Stratford stop would help a lot with load balancing.

You say that people are only traveling half an hour but you forget the people who want to go to Stratford who start their journey in Norwich, Diss or Ipswich who have to change trains and face the prospect of being like sardines from Colchester/Witham to London. when there is enough room for them to simply stay on the IC set and stop it at Stratford.
 
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F Great Eastern

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Given I spend my life on Norwich intercities I feel for once I have some expertise here. To be honest FGE I don't know how you have managed to come to your conclusion, Up road intercities never leave Colchester emptier than they were before arrival! The move to take out those stops is a god send, it will massively help me run those particular services to time and avoid knock on delays. It's good for everyone.

I would go along with your viewpoint when it comes to weekday services - there is certainly more people who are getting on the train than getting off the trains. No argument with that whatsoever.

Also the xx:00 services from Norwich what you say is also true, in part aided by the fact that the Thorpe Le Soken to Colchester line feeds into that particular service each hour.

What I'm talking about is on the weekend xx:30 departures from Norwich which have no connections feeding into them at Colchester and run fast from Colchester to London. The transfer of passengers from IC to EMU to access Stratford is essentially leaving people further down the line unable to board said EMU.

I'm just telling you about the reality what happens to me for someone who has to travel from Ipswich/Manningtree to Stratford for work occasionally at weekends, I actually prefer traveling in peak during the week because my trains are less crowded then!
 
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dk1

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So actually the only gripe is with the xx:30 from Norwich which applies to probably just the 08:30 & 09:30 ex-Nrw on a Saturday morning. Simple answer is to make the 09:33/10:33 from Colchester 12-cars or consider inserting a Stratford set down into the IC services. To state these services leave Colchester 'half empty' is completely untrue.
 

Wivenswold

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Are we forgetting that Liverpool Street - Norwich is going 3 tph off peak from 2019? No reason to think that won't include Saturday services as they are often busier than weekday daytime ones. GA have confirmed that this will be an additional service and not the extension of the current Ipswich - London train. So plenty of options there, a fast IC, a semi-fast IC and a stopper seems sensible. That's an additional 500-1100 seats every hour depending on what unit they use (10 car Aventras if the Rail magazine article from last Autumn is to be believed). Ipswich to Colchester will effectively have an extra 2 tph thanks to the Peterborough service extension.

If we're going for speculation, then I suggest the following hourly IC service pattern;

xx00 - Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, Stratford, LST. With Stratford becoming as important a station as Liverpool Street when Crossrail opens, missing it out should be the exception for a few peak trains, not the rule.
xx20 - Norwich, Diss, Stowmarket, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Stratford, LST.
xx40 - All stations to Colchester, Witham, Chelmsford, Shenfield, Stratford, LST.

Until we know better, the assumption should be that GA are doing a lot of homework on increasing capacity for everyone, albeit with a completely new service pattern.
 

dk1

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Are we forgetting that Liverpool Street - Norwich is going 3 tph off peak from 2019? No reason to think that won't include Saturday services as they are often busier than weekday daytime ones. GA have confirmed that this will be an additional service and not the extension of the current Ipswich - London train. So plenty of options there, a fast IC, a semi-fast IC and a stopper seems sensible. That's an additional 500-1100 seats every hour depending on what unit they use (10 car Aventras if the Rail magazine article from last Autumn is to be believed). Ipswich to Colchester will effectively have an extra 2 tph thanks to the Peterborough service extension.

If we're going for speculation, then I suggest the following hourly IC service pattern;

xx00 - Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, Stratford, LST. With Stratford becoming as important a station as Liverpool Street when Crossrail opens, missing it out should be the exception for a few peak trains, not the rule.
xx20 - Norwich, Diss, Stowmarket, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Stratford, LST.
xx40 - All stations to Colchester, Witham, Chelmsford, Shenfield, Stratford, LST.

Until we know better, the assumption should be that GA are doing a lot of homework on increasing capacity for everyone, albeit with a completely new service pattern.

I don't think we could forget that franchise commitment but I would be very surprised if it was an even interval 20min frequency from Norwich.
 

F Great Eastern

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So actually the only gripe is with the xx:30 from Norwich which applies to probably just the 08:30 & 09:30 ex-Nrw on a Saturday morning. Simple answer is to make the 09:33/10:33 from Colchester 12-cars or consider inserting a Stratford set down into the IC services. To state these services leave Colchester 'half empty' is completely untrue.

The connections at Colchester for the 08:30 and the 09:30 certainly are the worst of the problems, but I've heard that the connection for the 10:30 is also suffering from sardine like conditions on occasion, but at least that happens further down the line than than on the earlier two so it's not so bad. Honestly I think inserting a Stratford would do the trick without needing the expense of the extra unit. It ma

It would provide a faster and smoother journey for those going to Stratford from Norwich/Ipswich/Colchester, and will mean passengers boarding/alighting EMUs at those places that are not served by IC would also have a much more comfortable journey and always be able to board and not be squashed like sardines.

I stepped off the 08:30 ex Norwich at Colchester a few weeks ago when I still had the luxury of a 4 seat bay to myself. I'd say it was 70% full at best before arriving at Colchester, about 25-30 got off my carriage there and a handful got on, I was first off the train and there honestly didn't appear to be that many people getting off it along the line. I'd estimate just over 60% full at best after Colchester.

The non fast IC certainly are more highly loaded arriving into LST due to what I suspect is a combination of the additional stops and the fact an EMU from Walton on the Naze feeds into it at Colchester.
 
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dk1

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I detest the 08:30 off Norwich. First class tends to be standing room only on a daily basis. Its one of the priority trains for a 1st class host to relieve the poor cafe bar of complimentry refreshments.
 

Wivenswold

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I don't think we could forget that franchise commitment but I would be very surprised if it was an even interval 20min frequency from Norwich.

Yes, that was for demonstration purposes only. A stopper 20 mins ahead of a fast wouldn't be ideal.
 

F Great Eastern

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I detest the 08:30 off Norwich. First class tends to be standing room only on a daily basis. Its one of the priority trains for a 1st class host to relieve the poor cafe bar of complimentry refreshments.

Is it really that busy at weekends in first?

I'm on standard class unless it's above a certain distance then my employer will pay for first so I rarely use first class these days on GA as I have a standard season.
 

306024

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Is it really that busy at weekends in first?.

Sure is, lots of advance purchasers go for the extra quality, as it is reasonably priced.

As for those Clacton to Liverpool St trains being sardine conditions, they will be if everyone who gets off the Norwich train and walks from platform 3 to platform 4 at Colchester gets in the first coach. Admittedly there isn’t much time to walk further, but keep an eye on the watch and you’ll get to the second unit if you get off the rear of the Norwich train.
 

306024

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Are we forgetting that Liverpool Street - Norwich is going 3 tph off peak from 2019? No reason to think that won't include Saturday services as they are often busier than weekday daytime ones. GA have confirmed that this will be an additional service and not the extension of the current Ipswich - London train. So plenty of options there, a fast IC, a semi-fast IC and a stopper seems sensible. That's an additional 500-1100 seats every hour depending on what unit they use (10 car Aventras if the Rail magazine article from last Autumn is to be believed). Ipswich to Colchester will effectively have an extra 2 tph thanks to the Peterborough service extension.

If we're going for speculation, then I suggest the following hourly IC service pattern;

xx00 - Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, Stratford, LST. With Stratford becoming as important a station as Liverpool Street when Crossrail opens, missing it out should be the exception for a few peak trains, not the rule.
xx20 - Norwich, Diss, Stowmarket, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Stratford, LST.
xx40 - All stations to Colchester, Witham, Chelmsford, Shenfield, Stratford, LST.

Until we know better, the assumption should be that GA are doing a lot of homework on increasing capacity for everyone, albeit with a completely new service pattern.

If only timetabling the GEML was that simple. That last paragraph is correct though. As the finances are based on growth, you’d like to think the bean counters factored in the capacity (and the costs) required too.
 

dk1

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Is it really that busy at weekends in first?

I'm on standard class unless it's above a certain distance then my employer will pay for first so I rarely use first class these days on GA as I have a standard season.

The 08:30 is silly busy in 1st Monday-Friday as is the first off-peak service & has a very high proportion of reserved seating. Saturdays can be F&S on anything up road from 07:00-11:00 & down from 17:00-20:30. The problem has gotten worse since the conversion of RFMs to TSOBs.
 

F Great Eastern

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Sure is, lots of advance purchasers go for the extra quality, as it is reasonably priced.

As for those Clacton to Liverpool St trains being sardine conditions, they will be if everyone who gets off the Norwich train and walks from platform 3 to platform 4 at Colchester gets in the first coach. Admittedly there isn’t much time to walk further, but keep an eye on the watch and you’ll get to the second unit if you get off the rear of the Norwich train.

The second unit is also like sardines just a bit later in the journey. I agree though that the front unit is busier on departure at colchester. I normally sit in the quiet coach when doing a change like that at Colchester to give me time to reach the back unit and there is better chance of a seat there but honestly at Witham it's pretty much crowded everywhere people sitting on bulkheads etc.
 

Class 170101

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So actually the only gripe is with the xx:30 from Norwich which applies to probably just the 08:30 & 09:30 ex-Nrw on a Saturday morning. Simple answer is to make the 09:33/10:33 from Colchester 12-cars or consider inserting a Stratford set down into the IC services. To state these services leave Colchester 'half empty' is completely untrue.

Which they have been yesterday and last Saturday and should be until Saturday 16 December inclusive, I hear.
 

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Latest issue of Rail magazine has an interesting piece on the end of the Electrostar and the ramping up of Aventra production and reports that the first Class 720 is now under construction.

No mention of whether the Aventra design was locked-down in November as expected but hopefully some insiders will have better info on that and the final decision on 1st Class.
 

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There was a small section of 2+2 with tables on the mockup, just behind the cab. This could be first class, or maybe just a better seating area for those who care enough.

upload_2017-12-6_21-34-1.png
 

Wivenswold

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Thanks Superalbs, I'm looking forward to your TS2018 version of the Aventra :D

Is that photo from your personal collection or have I missed some good online ones?
 
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