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Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

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Wivenswold

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There's no debate, there's no "if" etc- the only units being built with 1st class are the 10 Norwich Intercity FLIRTs- the Stansted FLIRTs will be Standard only, the rural bi-mode FLIRTs will be standard only, the entire Aventra fleet will be Standard only. The FLIRT specification is fully locked down, the Aventra more or less (the bike space configuration was the last item). The only units with a yellow stripe above the windows will be the Norwich ones. No amount of "maybes" or "they shoulds" on an internet forum is changing that!

(Blue stripe above the wheelchair accessible section, green stripe above the bike area, if I recall correctly from the presentations. But yes, yellow above first, as it should be)

I thank you for that observation, this is a thread for discussion on the GA fleet and its developments, so it's perfectly right and proper that the specification is discussed here. However, you are rather overlooking the many reports that GA bosses were thinking about 1st class in Aventras. We also have no evidence of what the "locked-down" specification was, so again, speculation is perfectly okay until we see it. I don't think anyone is suggesting you're wrong, but that doesn't mean it won't continue to be a talking point, especially for commuters on these boards.
 
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dp21

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There's no debate, there's no "if" etc- the only units being built with 1st class are the 10 Norwich Intercity FLIRTs- the Stansted FLIRTs will be Standard only, the rural bi-mode FLIRTs will be standard only, the entire Aventra fleet will be Standard only. The FLIRT specification is fully locked down, the Aventra more or less (the bike space configuration was the last item). The only units with a yellow stripe above the windows will be the Norwich ones. No amount of "maybes" or "they shoulds" on an internet forum is changing that!

(Blue stripe above the wheelchair accessible section, green stripe above the bike area, if I recall correctly from the presentations. But yes, yellow above first, as it should be)

Quite right with the all of the above including the coloured stripes. I'm yet to receive confirmation as to whether red will be used for the "bistro" on the IC12 or AIR12s. Not sure if the latter actually has one to be honest. I imagine it may not be as it'll blend in a bit with the new livery however I'll wait and see.
 

JBuchananGB

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Just a remark about Renatus 321s I saw yesterday 9th December. One was in the failed 1K64 at Shenfield at about 1630. Failed in platform 3, which resulted in the following 2K66 being routed through platform 1, slightly delaying 2K85 on which I was a passenger.

Later I caught the 2251 departure from Stratford, and travelled in Renatus unit 321309 2K20. Standing room only as far as Romford, then able to sit down in reasonable comfort.
 

Class 170101

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Regarding the 08.30 Norwich to Liverpool St, it’s the first off peak Norwich train, arriving in Liverpool St after 10.00. From Monday 11/12/17 The 08.48 from Ipswich no longer runs as a slow train attaching to a Colchester Town to Liverpool St service at Colchester, but simply calls Manningtree, Colchester, Stratford and Liverpool St arriving 10.10. For some strange reason for the first week of operation it still departs at 08.48, but from the following Monday 18/12/17 it departs Ipswich at 08.58, still arriving at 10.10. This is to tempt Ipswich, Manningtree and Colchester folks away from the 08.30 from Norwich.

Realtime Trains is your friend here - 'Squirty' running for another week it seems
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H21055/2017/12/11/advanced
 

Alfie1014

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With fewer trains with first class available at Manningtree and Colchester in particular, it will be a dilema whether to buy a first class season ticket in the first place, as the chances of getting a first class seat in the morning peak are reduced.
Indeed as in the high peak there are no calls at Colchester by Norwich services departing Liv St between 16:30 and 18:10 and in the morning only one call between 07:30 and 09:03 a First season becomes pretty worthless. Also I can’t imagine that there’d be any desire to put any extra stops in as to do so would only overwhelm already busy trains and increase journey times.

It will be interesting to see the detail of the new timetables from 2019, though I’d hope there would be a consultation on it next year?
 

306024

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Personally I think the elimination of 1st class is long overdue and should only be retained on the primary intercity routes. Maybe there might be an argument for retaining it on the Stansted's as it would also make substituting a Stansted and Norwich flirt on each route easier, but overall I think its time 1st class went from London Commuter routes as has been the case on many regional routes for years.

A uniform fleet would have made operations much easier, but similar to the Colchester / Manningtree dilema, a first class season for Harlow Town or Bishops Stortford wouldn’t be a very good deal, with the Cambridge trains being standard only. Regarding airport traffic, this is budget Stansted, not premium Heathrow.

As for the timetable, there are only 10 first class Stadlers to play with, including presumably a maintenance spare, if memory serves. Currently 10 x 90/DVT sets are required for the standard timetable pattern, plus an 11th that runs in the peak. The assumption is turnround times at Liverpool Street and Norwich have to be tightened, but add in a couple of Norwich in 90 paths and first class at Colchester and Manningtree will be sparse indeed.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure about a uniform fleet - it'd have been not totally ideal for either type of service - probably being something like a 350/1 i.e. an Aventra with 2+2 seating throughout at relatively high density and a 2+2 first class area, not particularly good for either role in this case.

What does surprise me is that the FLIRTs aren't all the same. You could always upsell 1st to airport passengers, even Ryanair ones. Indeed, as 1st becomes more of a leisure product (as companies shun it for business travel) it might be that you'll sell more of it on those!
 

306024

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I'm not sure about a uniform fleet - it'd have been not totally ideal for either type of service - probably being something like a 350/1 i.e. an Aventra with 2+2 seating throughout at relatively high density and a 2+2 first class area, not particularly good for either role in this case.

What does surprise me is that the FLIRTs aren't all the same. You could always upsell 1st to airport passengers, even Ryanair ones. Indeed, as 1st becomes more of a leisure product (as companies shun it for business travel) it might be that you'll sell more of it on those!

To be clear I was talking about a uniform Stadler EMU fleet. Not sure I’d agree with spending more on the train fare than the flight though.
 

Bletchleyite

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To be clear I was talking about a uniform Stadler EMU fleet. Not sure I’d agree with spending more on the train fare than the flight though.

They could offer a relatively cheap upgrade for Airport passengers only, perhaps £5-£10 + Standard fare at all times. I could see quite a few people going for that along the lines of "we've had to suffer Ryanair, let's at least enjoy the train journey". A bit of extra money plus the ease of diagramming provided by a uniform IC fleet.
 

delticdave

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Thanks, I didn't know that, lived a sheltered life up here! :oops:
When I've ever wanted to use my Senior Railcard outside the South East area, I would have been on holiday in a Farmhouse B& B, so the Full English would have taken priority over a train ride...........
(Thunk, that might not be totally true, I did buy a discounted 8-day Scotrail pass a few years ago & since i was staying in an self-catering apartment about 5 minutes from Balloch station I might have forgone brekkie once or twice. I also remember getting up early & driving from there to Helensburgh Upper to catch the 1st (non-sleeper) train up the West Highland.)
 

Wivenswold

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It's a big shame that GA didn't go for a uniform fleet of 30 Stadler 12 cars and fewer Aventras. Give the Stansted Expresses 1st class, Norwich services a uniform fleet and stick the remaining 4 or 5 on Ipswich and Clacton peak services and bill them as "Commuter Club" trains with 1st class and modest on-board catering facilities. Cut back the Bistro on them all and have a smaller coffee and pastries booth in a "Cafe" carriage.

Start two or three of them from Cambridge in the morning, hey presto, lots of competition for the GN service.

It may have reduced the over-all headline capacities but would have provided a quality service for the customers who pay the most. There were points awarded on the Franchise for innovation after all.
 

306024

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You should have been on the bid team ;) Agree that would have been a better balance.

Nice attempt to bring back the class 309 griddle cars there in a more modern format as well :)
 

Wivenswold

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Thanks, that's lovely of you "306024".

I actually suggested something similar to Jonathan Denby years ago over a coffee, get rid of the IC sets using 36 long-distance Desiro 5 cars for Norwich/Ipswich and Clacton peak services allowing approx 35 Class 321s and 322s to migrate to WA and replace the 317s (which were a bit of a state at the time).

My other big idea of the time was to add the Metropolitan Main Line to Crossrail (so Shenfield to Maidenhead & Amersham etc to Abbey Wood) and run a peak hours service from Stanmore to Aldgate and extend the Wimbleware Districts to Aldgate as well to fill up the gaps left by the Met service. TfL didn't even respond.
 

306024

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There were others who suggested 5 car units, similar to the Bournemouth line. There is a view that the Norwich service is a cut above everything else, although a look at the income would suggest differently. Personally I’m pleased the Norwich service is fixed formation, but given there are some Bombardier fixed 10 car trains too, perhaps some of those should have been Stadlers. It’s all a matter of opinion, and we’re not party to the contracts entered into, just interested observers.

Unfortunately 321s wouldn’t have been compatable on West Anglia for DOO. A 321 cab isn’t suitable for ‘look back’ DOO, which was the norm at the time on WA. I know 322s were used in Stansted Express but that was on limited stops.
 

MatthewRead

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There were others who suggested 5 car units, similar to the Bournemouth line. There is a view that the Norwich service is a cut above everything else, although a look at the income would suggest differently. Personally I’m pleased the Norwich service is fixed formation, but given there are some Bombardier fixed 10 car trains too, perhaps some of those should have been Stadlers. It’s all a matter of opinion, and we’re not party to the contracts entered into, just interested observers.

Unfortunately 321s wouldn’t have been compatable on West Anglia for DOO. A 321 cab isn’t suitable for ‘look back’ DOO, which was the norm at the time on WA. I know 322s were used in Stansted Express but that was on limited stops.
321's did use to work on the West Anglia Main Line but I don't know for how long.
 

Wivenswold

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The were originally ordered for the WA route according to this Thames TV clip. 30 class 321s with the 319-style body were for Cambridge services with an option for 16 more for the Southend Victoria line. The 321s (and 310s) on the West Anglia line were replaced by 317 Mk1s and 322s from 1990. Allowing the replacement of 307s on the Southend Vic service.

The option to buy even more of these "Yuppy" friendly trains was clearly taken up and extended to 64 for the Great Eastern which meant that the remaining 310s could be transferred to LTS to see off their remaining unrefurbished 302s.

So much to say about the clip, I feel old now.
 

chubs

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Even back 15 years ago off peak services to Norwich from Liverpool St and vice versa were always well patronised throughout. OK a lot of people get off at Colchester and Ipswich but many join as well.

A 5 car would not have been a fun travelling experience
 

dk1

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Indeed as in the high peak there are no calls at Colchester by Norwich services departing Liv St between 16:30 and 18:10 and in the morning only one call between 07:30 and 09:03 a First season becomes pretty worthless. Also I can’t imagine that there’d be any desire to put any extra stops in as to do so would only overwhelm already busy trains and increase journey times.

17:50 Liv St-Norwich calls at Colchester.
 

Wivenswold

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Even back 15 years ago off peak services to Norwich from Liverpool St and vice versa were always well patronised throughout. OK a lot of people get off at Colchester and Ipswich but many join as well.

A 5 car would not have been a fun travelling experience

No, my "plan" would have had 10 cars on all but the very earliest and latest trains against the flow of the peak. This was back in the day when 2 car DMUs would often make up the last run of the day to London so at the time 5 cars would have been an upgrade. Of course I didn't anticipate 10/12 car non-IC EMU units at the time.
 

urpert

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The were originally ordered for the WA route according to this Thames TV clip. 30 class 321s with the 319-style body were for Cambridge services with an option for 16 more for the Southend Victoria line. The 321s (and 310s) on the West Anglia line were replaced by 317 Mk1s and 322s from 1990. Allowing the replacement of 307s on the Southend Vic service.

The option to buy even more of these "Yuppy" friendly trains was clearly taken up and extended to 64 for the Great Eastern which meant that the remaining 310s could be transferred to LTS to see off their remaining unrefurbished 302s.

So much to say about the clip, I feel old now.

I remember getting a 321 on Liv St - Cambridge in the early 90s and being very disappointed that the interior was just a greyer version of the 319s (the front end with LCD destination board looked impossibly futuristic to a 10 year old)
 

samuelmorris

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Don't think they were LCD, weren't they flipdisc displays back then? (Still cool looking, have always liked that type of display)
</offtopic>

Had 321302 this evening, first Renatus unit for a while, thought it was odd to see one on a Southend service but realised it wasn't one of the retractioned units. Sounded pretty horrendous to be honest, so I imagine it's probably a candidate for being done soon.
 

urpert

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Don't think they were LCD, weren't they flipdisc displays back then? (Still cool looking, have always liked that type of display)
</offtopic>

Had 321302 this evening, first Renatus unit for a while, thought it was odd to see one on a Southend service but realised it wasn't one of the retractioned units. Sounded pretty horrendous to be honest, so I imagine it's probably a candidate for being done soon.

I think they were originally LCD backlit yellow (like the contemporary platform displays at Liverpool St) because they were illegible within a couple of years.
 

87015

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321401 has rocked up today (?) on Southend duties. I think it's new for the GE which is a bit odd at this stage!
 

Wivenswold

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I read somewhere on Flickr that it's on temporary loan before heading off to Scotland to become a Class 320.

In other news 306 & 307 are back from Doncaster from their Renatus refit. 316 has gone up there to join 308, 312 and 313.
 

Shunter_69

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Drove 307 this week (fortunately not when it was part of the train that had pan issues at Witham) Much better without the new brakes. Seemed to have plenty of power too. The new traction packs do make them go better but they still go well enough without it and it definitely gives a smoother ride for passengers.

It would be good if they abandoned the traction pack upgrade but can’t see it sadly.
 

samuelmorris

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Is the smoothness issue not just when unconverted units are coupled to converted ones? I did notice rather oddly that the first one or two notches of braking don't trigger the regen unlike modern units, they have to be braking quite hard to set it off, perhaps that has something to do with it?
 

dp21

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321401 has rocked up today (?) on Southend duties. I think it's new for the GE which is a bit odd at this stage!

GA recieved extra 321s from GTR earlier in the year and a couple more units turned up recently to cover for the availability issues being caused by the renatus/traction upgrade. I don't know how long they're on lease for though.

Will the class 755s be compatible to run with a class 720?

I believe they'll have dellners/scharfenberg couplers but it's my understanding - from the detail I've seen - that the 755s have the electrical heads on top and the 720s have them underneath. Quite why Bombardier still do this I don't know as industry best in recent times has been deemed to be to put them on top so that when you uncouple you don't get all the dirt dropping into the electrical head as frequently happens on underslung versions.

Each to their own I suppose but in answer to your question it would likely be theoretically possible to drag a unit but not electrically compatible.
 

Shunter_69

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Is the smoothness issue not just when unconverted units are coupled to converted ones? I did notice rather oddly that the first one or two notches of braking don't trigger the regen unlike modern units, they have to be braking quite hard to set it off, perhaps that has something to do with it?

The regen appears to kick in all the time if the daft light in the cab is to be believed. It doesn’t kick in much in step one and two though.

Would be interested to see how 2 converted units handle as an 8 car to see if it’s better. Only had 2 as part of a 12 so far. As much as I’m capable of a rough stop on my own it does hurt my professional pride somewhat when they are clunking about under braking.
 
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