anamyd
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Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates
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The 175s and 180s were built around the same time as the 170s and they have had the loud piercing sound for door release from new.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I don't think the 170s have an issue with volume (though I could be wrong about that) but they don't meet the spec for using two different pitches of a particular frequency.
Class 317722
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Any updates on 317506? That was the first 317 to go for the PRM mods at Doncaster last month I believe.
Wivenswold
Established Member
While we're looking for information, has anyone seen a Class 720? We had the photos of a unit "nearing completion" in April, then a 3 car one in September for the press day. By now you'd expect sightings of them around the yard at the Derby Factory or a couple being ferried to Old Dalby, but there's nothing. I know that GA have pushed back the plan for introduction into service from March 2019 to Autumn 2019 no doubt because of the issues with 345s and 710s but with production of the 720s apparently in full swing according to a GA Tweet from a couple of months ago) it's rather surprising that none have broken cover yet.
dk1
Veteran Member
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samuelmorris
Established Member
I'm not sure I believe the comment about 720s being in full swing. Where would they put them all? There are a lot of 710s to get out the door first, not to mention the remainder of the 345s. It may well be true that in light of the Crossrail announcement the other operators will jump the queue a bit, but if they were building 720s at any significant rate I'd have expected to see at least one outside at Derby somewhere.
AlexNL
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Why would they? Bombardier have a contractual obligation to deliver the 345's at given timescales, when production is underway it's better to keep it going rather than giving priority to other builds halfway.
Furthermore, even if the Crossrail core isn't available yet the trains might be needed for TfL Rail. The existing stock on the eastern side of the tunnel is going to go off-lease at a certain point in time, and TfL Rail are looking to take over the stopping services on the Thames side even when the core isn't available yet.
samuelmorris
Established Member
TfL taking over the GWR services prior to core opening is what will change matters. Crossrail specifies 70 9-car sets, the services TfL Rail currently operate require less than 30 and they all have to be 7-car for the time being. Not a lot of point storing an enormous number of newly manufactured 9-car units that can't be used for potentially up to 2 years.
Wivenswold
Established Member
Bombardier must have several productions lines, so it could follow that production of 720s could slow to one line but as samuelmorris suggested if they've made a few 720s you'd certainly expect some to be scattered around the yard and at Old Dalby. I'd have expected a pre-production on with on-board monitoring equipment to be running around at the Ashfordby Test Circuit.
I'm starting to get the feeling that there's something going on in the background, a new plan or maybe just utter chaos with fingers crossed that it will all turn out okay. Maybe I've just been watching too much BBC Parliament recently.
I'm starting to get the feeling that there's something going on in the background, a new plan or maybe just utter chaos with fingers crossed that it will all turn out okay. Maybe I've just been watching too much BBC Parliament recently.
samuelmorris
Established Member
No conspiracy theory here, but simply put while the 710s are still not introduced after all this time I don't see the other fleet production going anywhere. As soon as we have some movement on the 710s the others will begin to follow I imagine. I haven't heard of any change of plan but PRM derogations and lease extensions for the old stock are now basically guaranteed.
fat_boy_pete
Member
Most people not bothered about losing First Class
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1076073587528867840?s=19
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1076073587528867840?s=19
samuelmorris
Established Member
Probably true, but to be honest, that's likely to be because the first class offering outside of Stansted Express and Norwich services is pretty feeble. I'd pay extra for the sort of first class offered on those services but as they don't serve my area, my only real option is first on a 321, or occasionally a 360. 360 first class I'd pay extra for, but since it would mean long waits for the right service (and nothing at all in peak hours) in most cases I'd be paying extra for 321 first class, which I wouldn't consider worth it. Further, there's no 'first class Oyster' - if there were, I'd probably use it on a fair few occasions.
RailWonderer
Established Member
Are you joking? 360 first class is standard on a 350 or 444. Depends how much extra and how long the journey is and how packed it is. Even 379s don't really go far enough imo to justify first. Now on a packed 390 pendo out of Euston on a 90 min + service in the holiday season, then first is worth paying for once the seats are far nicer. But still, each to their own.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I didn't say how much extra! The main appeal of it is 2+2 so on a busy service (assuming FC wasn't full) I'd be guaranteed a seat that wasn't a squeeze. You have to bear in mind I very rarely spend longer than 25 mins on the move on Anglia services and LST out to Shenfield is £11 max. I'd be OK to spend an extra £2 for a 2+2 seat versus 2+3 or no seat at all on a busy service. Again though, since I can only use 360s off-peak it's generally not appropriate.
fat_boy_pete
Member
Well unless they timetable a 745 to call at Shenfield (unlikely), you won't have a choice from 2020.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Indeed. I'm still somewhat hoping that the Lowestoft services will call at Shenfield just for a bit of variety if nothing else, but yes, I will most likely be lumbered with standard class. As long as the seating on the 720s is decent, I don't have a problem with that. Quite frankly by the way things are going I'd probably rather be on a 720 than a lot of other new stock being introduced.
Have to admit to a vested interest in this issue, with retired staff travel facilities (1st class) I'm a regular user mostly off peak, (though on occasion in the peaks), on GA. I was also the BR manager who worked up the business case that led to abandonment of FC on the LTS in the 1990s, so have some understanding of the economics.
There's no doubt that First Class on GA has been very much a mixed offer, until the last few years the interior condition of many the trains left a lot to be desired, the refurbishments have improved this dramatically and in the main the presentation of the trains under Abellio is much better. That said on the DOO services policing of first class and revenue collection gives the impression at times that the operator can't be bothered with it and public responds appropriately. Therefore it hardly surprising that first class revenue other than on the Norwich route is so low. First class revenue may well have been impacted by the on-going engineering works at weekend and Bank Hols; who would pay for FC if you were going to be spending much of your journey on the GEML at least in a rail replacement coach and the tube!
That said I'm quite surprised at times the number of genuine first class ticket holders on some off peak services, especially on the longer distance EMU routes, though this might be due to GA's competitive Advance fares. In the peaks I personally think there is some true demand from the more well heeled places like Shenfield, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, B Stortford and Audley End, you only have to look at the numbers of high marque cars in the car parks on weekdays to see that some of GA's customers do have the income that should support such an offer. Come January 2020 these First Class season ticket holders, (who pay GA the most and in most industries would be the most valued customers), will only have the option of joining probably already busy trains in the peak and may have the worst choice of seats for their journey to work. The Stansted decision I find odd too as it simply seems to reinforce the perception that the airport is only serving the low cost market, something the owners seem to spend loads of time trying to impress on the wider world is not the case! Like so much in the industry today Great Minster House knows best so one class will fit all for many users in this part of the world.
It'll be intersting to see how this impacts on GAs bottom line though I would imagine the assumption that overall growth would mask any losses, though how demand holds up with changes to working practices and the impact of B****it on the City is a moot point! Being commercially sensitive however I doubt we'll get to see the hard numbers though.
I have to admit personally I have to see what the 720 travelling experience is like but I do wonder if I'll gravitate more the Norwich fasts which other than in the high peaks stop at Colchester, I do wonder if FC on these will become over subscribed though, which on some shoulder peak services such as the 16:00 and 16:30 ex LST it already can be on some days.
Lastly Samuelmorris my understanding is that due to their limited capacity, (like the 170s before), the through Lowestofts will make few if any stops south of Ipswich, though as so much about this franchise we'll have to wait and see the full detail of future timetables to find out.
There's no doubt that First Class on GA has been very much a mixed offer, until the last few years the interior condition of many the trains left a lot to be desired, the refurbishments have improved this dramatically and in the main the presentation of the trains under Abellio is much better. That said on the DOO services policing of first class and revenue collection gives the impression at times that the operator can't be bothered with it and public responds appropriately. Therefore it hardly surprising that first class revenue other than on the Norwich route is so low. First class revenue may well have been impacted by the on-going engineering works at weekend and Bank Hols; who would pay for FC if you were going to be spending much of your journey on the GEML at least in a rail replacement coach and the tube!
That said I'm quite surprised at times the number of genuine first class ticket holders on some off peak services, especially on the longer distance EMU routes, though this might be due to GA's competitive Advance fares. In the peaks I personally think there is some true demand from the more well heeled places like Shenfield, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, B Stortford and Audley End, you only have to look at the numbers of high marque cars in the car parks on weekdays to see that some of GA's customers do have the income that should support such an offer. Come January 2020 these First Class season ticket holders, (who pay GA the most and in most industries would be the most valued customers), will only have the option of joining probably already busy trains in the peak and may have the worst choice of seats for their journey to work. The Stansted decision I find odd too as it simply seems to reinforce the perception that the airport is only serving the low cost market, something the owners seem to spend loads of time trying to impress on the wider world is not the case! Like so much in the industry today Great Minster House knows best so one class will fit all for many users in this part of the world.
It'll be intersting to see how this impacts on GAs bottom line though I would imagine the assumption that overall growth would mask any losses, though how demand holds up with changes to working practices and the impact of B****it on the City is a moot point! Being commercially sensitive however I doubt we'll get to see the hard numbers though.
I have to admit personally I have to see what the 720 travelling experience is like but I do wonder if I'll gravitate more the Norwich fasts which other than in the high peaks stop at Colchester, I do wonder if FC on these will become over subscribed though, which on some shoulder peak services such as the 16:00 and 16:30 ex LST it already can be on some days.
Lastly Samuelmorris my understanding is that due to their limited capacity, (like the 170s before), the through Lowestofts will make few if any stops south of Ipswich, though as so much about this franchise we'll have to wait and see the full detail of future timetables to find out.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
The Renatus 321 First Class is crap, not helped by GA selling more advances than seats (believe it or not) in the past, the fact that some seats don't even have tables or windows, the sockets are covered up, the aircon is broke so it's like a sauna and the fact the location where it is rides even worse since the work was done to the units.
On my last journey I actually vacated first class and sat in standard, it was a better, far less crowded experience and was an upgrade on first class, as stupid as it sounds.
On my last journey I actually vacated first class and sat in standard, it was a better, far less crowded experience and was an upgrade on first class, as stupid as it sounds.
RailWonderer
Established Member
I would have thought they would keep first on the Stansted FLIRT since one unit every two weeks will have to sub in for a Norwich FLIRT for routine maintenance. However most flights out of Stansted are low cost flights by ryanair, flyby and easy jet, unlike premium Heathrow where many are willing to pay £50+ for 15-20 mins of train in first so demand probably isn't there.
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samuelmorris
Established Member
That would make sense, however it's not what they used to do in the old NX days as I vividly remember regularly using the rammed 3-car 170s to travel between Shenfield and Chelmsford. Times have certainly changed and logistically it seems fair enough to only serve the most major stations en route to Ipswich for those services, however, given they're only running a few services a day, they may not actually run directly inside the peak periods in which case they shouldn't have too great an impact on capacity.
As for first class to Stansted, I suspect it's to offer a single, simplified 'airport train' service. Why offer first class if your entire train is a premium offering? Compared to the Gatwick and imminently Heathrow Express services, it's conceivable that standard on a 745 might seem like first compared to a 387...
Yep, wouldn't surprise me if we see the GA order changed to include some 4x 20m units. 5x 24m don't fit in Manningtree and Wickford bays, and 10x 24m don't fit Hertford East. No sign of GA / NR doing necessary infrastructure work.
GA ordered 89 5 car + 22 10 car 720s. ISTR Franchise Agreement says lease for all of them starts May 19. They must be 6months plus behind already - from day first one is delivered must be looking at 12 months to get them all delivered and commissioned (ie 2 a week).
Come Jan 2020 will be interesting to see what units GA are using. Some 317s having PRM mods so perhaps they will stay for Hertford East. 360s as well on GE branches? 379s displaced from StanExp?
A healthy proportion of Stansted Express passengers aren’t actually going to the airport though; they are going to Harlow or Stortford. Good for them if it is a premium service; not so if it comes with a premium price.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I can't see them charging extra HEx style for it as there aren't really any other rail alternatives.
Bit of a stretch to describe Stansted Express as a premium offering - it is slow at best of times and in peaks all have extra stops added for commuters and are slowed down more by pathing constraints on West Anglia and approach to LivSt. It is much more Heathrow Connect than Heathrow Express.
Where first will be missed is on the peak Cambridge service - the three fast 12 car peak services from Camb (0647/0717/0747) are usually full and standing from Audley End in standard, and full in first from Stortford (first two anyway, third is slightly less busy). Decent number of commuters prepared to pay first for the nice 2+1 seating/tables to work on - they are going to find themselves squeezed 3+2 airline style whether they like it or not. But extra seats overall will be welcome in standard
Wivenswold
Established Member
The outgoing Chief of GA confirmed to me that the passenger busting 720 10 cars will be used on the West Anglia route, so it's not unlikely that two or more of those 12 car peak services will have the 1100 seat trains, which will help. Add in a couple of 745s and it would suggest there will be significantly more seats for Cambridge Line commuters, though that will depend on how they will schedule it. The proposed new-look timetable has not yet been presented to passengers for the promised consultation.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
The MD is going now as well?
That's the three most senior directors in GA walked out in as many months if so, and that's before you take into account a number of senior operational people who have also recently left. Speaks volumes about how deliverable they think their bid is, if we've lost the MD as well as the Finance Director and the Projects Director.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Fair, I wasn't trying to equate Stansted Express to Heathrow's current offering, but it's still a premium compared to the rest of the services - I don't think that 745s (even the Stansted ones) having a higher-spec interior than the 720s is in any doubt. I'm assuming that's the only route such stock will be used on, over on the West Anglia side.
I suspect that after it transfers to 387 operation, the Stansted Express may be the more premium travelling experience - the downside of course being the considerably greater journey time.
As for Cambridge commuters, yes, there will be a downgrade in standard from 379 to 720 but as pointed out above, quite considerable extra capacity should alleviate some of that. Also bear in mind that there are very few airline seats on the 3 side of the 3+2, most of the airline seating is on the 2 side. There are also numerous facing bays on the 2 side as long as you sit at the carriage end rather than in the central section.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
720s look very squashed in the bays of 6 - certainly looks to be less room than on the existing 3+2 stock from the latest photos I have seen. I still have serious doubts about how squashed both of the fleets are going to be - as much as last weak I heard that GA were taking an interest of possibly switching to the LEAN 2 which is even narrower and thinner than the original version, as FISA have marketed as allowing even more seats to be fitted. You'd have to think though the seat type would be tied down by this point?
https://www.fisaitaly.com/lean2-the...-width-of-lean-seat-even-more-modular-en.html
samuelmorris
Established Member
Yes I would, but if Bombardier are so far behind they've only built one unit, it won't do too much harm. I do wonder why they feel the change is necessary, unless that seat wasn't available at the time the stock was originally specified and given the delayed introduction they want to upgrade to it - I don't have an issue with that unless it's worse from a comfort point of view. The fact they've already assembled entire vehicles with interiors tells me they do at least all fit, so I don't think the legroom concerns are likely to have much merit.
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