Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[greaterangrier]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L13994/2020-02-27/detailed
What 360s can do if given the right routing and timetabling arrangements. LST to CLT is currently 1h26 but this 360 managed it in 1h18 (but lost mins up to Forest Gate where it was delayed by 11 mins) and caught up fully. Just shows the speed of the 360s, however the acceleration of the 720s shouldn't be too bad.

 

[Railperf]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L13994/2020-02-27/detailed
What 360s can do if given the right routing and timetabling arrangements. LST to CLT is currently 1h26 but this 360 managed it in 1h18 (but lost mins up to Forest Gate where it was delayed by 11 mins) and caught up fully. Just shows the speed of the 360s, however the acceleration of the 720s shouldn't be too bad.

A Class 345 (TFL rail version of the Aventura) does 0-90mph in 74 seconds. A Class 360 needs nearer 2 mins. So there is likely to be a step change in performance if the power to weight ration for Class 720 remains similar to the 345's!
Class 755 drivers are already saying the 360's feel pedestrian in comparison - but until now the 360's and 379's were the star performers and in a different league to Class 321's and 317s.

 

[Railperf]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L13994/2020-02-27/detailed
What 360s can do if given the right routing and timetabling arrangements. LST to CLT is currently 1h26 but this 360 managed it in 1h18 (but lost mins up to Forest Gate where it was delayed by 11 mins) and caught up fully. Just shows the speed of the 360s, however the acceleration of the 720s shouldn't be too bad.

The 360's performance is wasted in the current timetable! But yes, a 321 would never have made up that sort of delay! Of course it often depends on whether other trains are pathed in front. I had an almost identical situation many years ago. If I'm ever happy to see a train late, it is usually when a Class 360 is the booked traction. Because you know that the driver will have some incentive to use the performance and more often than not, will make the time up!

 

[samuelmorris]

The 360's performance is wasted in the current timetable! But yes, a 321 would never have made up that sort of delay! Of course it often depends on whether other trains are pathed in front. I had an almost identical situation many years ago. If I'm ever happy to see a train late, it is usually when a Class 360 is the booked traction. Because you know that the driver will have some incentive to use the performance and more often than not, will make the time up!

It's actually possible to tell if a TfL Rail service is worked by a 345 or 315 from RTT in times of minor disruption as if a unit makes up multiple minutes east of Stratford it's a 345, if it doesn't it's probably a 315. That proved remarkably accurate whenever I assessed it.

The 360's performance is wasted in the current timetable! But yes, a 321 would never have made up that sort of delay! Of course it often depends on whether other trains are pathed in front. I had an almost identical situation many years ago. If I'm ever happy to see a train late, it is usually when a Class 360 is the booked traction. Because you know that the driver will have some incentive to use the performance and more often than not, will make the time up!

As long as it isn't the train in front of the 360 that's the reason why it's late!

 

[delticdave]

Also 317’s don’t have route availability on the Southend branch. Would strike the platforms at Billericay.

What would cause a 317 to strike a platform at Billericay? Don't they have C1 clearances / what the difference between 315's / 321's & a 317?
Back in the day any GE EMU could work anywhere on the GE electrified network, what's changed since then?

 

[43 302]

Are there any diagrams between LST and NRW that aren't class 90 operated? Planning on making a trip up the GEML and would like to avoid all multiple units. Thanks.

 

[lord rathmore]

No, 745007 and 745010 are operating alongside class 90/mk3, with the occasional 321. Nothing else I'm afraid.

 

[Speed43125]

Given there is only 1 720 at Ilford so far, and with 6 months left on the 360 lease before they go off to refurb to join EMR in the December, it’s practically certain catastrophe on the GEML lies ahead, especially in the morning and evening peaks. Many 12 car bins will become 8 and 8 will become 4 to replace the 360s, many of which work in 12s and 8s and split and join during the day. I’m surprised we haven’t seen a Scotrail 365 situation when their 385s were delayed for windscreen curvature issues. Are GA that myopic/optimistic? The only problem is clearances and the complexity of having to clear all branches as opposed to just Glasgow-Dunblane like it was in Scotland.

As for the 379s, they don’t hve any work lined up for them so I suppose a new cheaper lease could be signed. It is always assumed the ROSCO (MacQuarie Lloyds) aren’t ever open to a renegotiation on new terms.

Hand scotrail back some 365s, replace the Dunblane trains with them, then the 385s can replace a few 320/4s and they can be temporarily cascaded to GA

 

[43 302]

No, 745007 and 745010 are operating alongside class 91/mk3, with the occasional 321. Nothing else I'm afraid.

Are they on specific diagrams or is it just potluck.

 

[Alfie1014]

No, 745007 and 745010 are operating alongside class 91/mk3, with the occasional 321. Nothing else I'm afraid.

It’s a bit more than the occasional 321 most weekdays recently it’s been the 09:03, 10:30, 14:00, 15:30, 19:30 up and 08:00, 11:30, 13:00, 16:30, 17:50 down.

 

[dk1]

Are they on specific diagrams or is it just potluck.

Specific starting with the 06:48 & 07:40 (SX)

 

[samuelmorris]

Promising signs of improvement from the lastest MR data on 755s - it won't take much for them to start surpassing the performance of the DMUs they replaced - this chart highlights how much work has to be done to outdo the rest of the legacy fleet, though...
https://i.imgur.com/RbuVZin.png

 

[dk1]

Promising signs of improvement from the lastest MR data on 755s - it won't take much for them to start surpassing the performance of the DMUs they replaced - this chart highlights how much work has to be done to outdo the rest of the legacy fleet, though...
https://i.imgur.com/RbuVZin.png

There has been a substantial improvement in reliability in the last couple of weeks. It is so pleasing to witness.

 

[Wivenswold]

I always had faith that the Stadlers would settle down, the Aventras less so, though Bombardier has benefit of the software already being tested out thoroughly on the 710s.
I'm rather surprised there are no reports of the 720s being out on tests on the Southend Vic line yet.

 

[samuelmorris]

There has been a substantial improvement in reliability in the last couple of weeks. It is so pleasing to witness.

That's good to hear because the MR figures are of course 2-3 months behind, so it sounds like further big improvements are expected. The 720s are a bit concerning though, not only because still more than a year after their intended introduction they're still nowhere near service entry, but also because the performance of their other Aventra classmates isn't exactly stellar. After their very late start 710 figures are promising, but the 345s (even ignoring the known issues with the 9-car variants) seem to have stabilised far below the MTIN of even the 315s they are replacing, let alone better performing legacy stock like 321s or worse still 360s. No real sign of improvement for considerable time and I'm not convinced the extra technology tacked on when they become Crossrail-fit will do anything but make matters worse there. The 7-car 345s as they are now will most closely resemble the performance we can expect from 720s given their more simple signalling systems setup, though I concede there are apparently major software differences between the two. If I had to guess, I would expect the 720s' MTIN not to have exceeded 5000 before 2021.

See chart - https://i.imgur.com/GBo8nFK.png
(Note - some early data points before 2019 are extrapolated as I don't own every MR mag from that period)

 

[Railperf]

Interesting news from Richard Clinnick. Class 321 renatus unit to be used alongside 745's on Norwich services to replace the class 90s from April. They must be expecting a really slow introduction of more 745s if they are are taking the time and trouble to train drivers on the 321s.

https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1235191455985160194?s=20

 

[TitanMike]

Interesting news from Richard Clinnick. Class 321 renatus unit to be used alongside 745's on Norwich services to replace the class 90s from April. They must be expecting a really slow introduction of more 745s if they are are taking the time and trouble to train drivers on the 321s.

https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1235191455985160194?s=20

Great! So even more short forms for the Essex commuter to endure. lets hope they can get some further dispensation for the loco hauled stock.

 

[Railperf]

How many sets / units needed for a full Norwich to London diagram?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Great! So even more short forms for the Essex commuter to endure. lets hope they can get some further dispensation for the loco hauled stock.

Apparently the loco hauled stock being extended is not an option, if that is something that they have no choice over or it is a commercial decision that they have made is unknown.

But it doesn't paint a rosy picture for what is to come in the months ahead with EMU operated non intercity services.

 

[rustbucket]

Apparently the loco hauled stock being extended is not an option, if that is something that they have no choice over or it is a commercial decision that they have made is unknown.

Well the tweet certainly suggests they are not allowed to keep the locos on any longer!

 

[trebor79]

Well the tweet certainly suggests they are not allowed to keep the locos on any longer!

Plenty of locos available. Almost anything can haul a rake of Mk3 coaches.

I said in the 745 thread, but perhaps this is more about late service introduction of the 720 and 745/1 fleets than (or as well as) the 745/0 fleet. There aren't enough 745/0s for the full service, so some trains are always going to be "something else". At the moment the only "something else" available is 321s.

 

[RailWonderer]

Let’s hope then, they will train GEML drivers on 379s when the 360s go or more short forms.

 

[43096]

Plenty of locos available. Almost anything can haul a rake of Mk3 coaches.

Plenty? Plenty of what?

Given that anything other than a 90 will need crew training, there's no real alternative and no doubt Freightliner are wanting their 90s. And I'm not really seeing what else can operate with a rake of Mark 3s in push mode.

 

[stonojnr]

Well the tweet certainly suggests they are not allowed to keep the locos on any longer!

but that could just be implied from the end of the extension of the DDA or that Grand Central really want some of the 90s sooner as well, maybe they could get some 37s and the Mk2s in formation again

I thought 321s had already done Norwich though, when they had lots of the carriages missing, enough to suggest drivers were trained on it at least for a couple of services, but I suppose 5-6 to fill the gaps is more than just a couple.

 

[dk1]

I thought 321s had already done Norwich though, when they had lots of the carriages missing, enough to suggest drivers were trained on it at least for a couple of services, but I suppose 5-6 to fill the gaps is more than just a couple.

Only Liverpool St & Ipswich drivers sign 321s on the ex-Anglia side of things. The majority of IC services on the route are rostered to Norwich crews.

 

[43096]

but that could just be implied from the end of the extension of the DDA or that Grand Central really want some of the 90s sooner as well, maybe they could get some 37s and the Mk2s in formation again

Grand Central aren’t having any of the Anglia 90s.

 

[ashkeba]

Plenty? Plenty of what?

Given that anything other than a 90 will need crew training, there's no real alternative and no doubt Freightliner are wanting their 90s. And I'm not really seeing what else can operate with a rake of Mark 3s in push mode.

Can 86s like one did for Hull Trains IIRC? 88s? 68s but that's diesel under wires?

Not that I think any will because training and cost.

 

[dk1]

Can 86s like one did for Hull Trains IIRC? 88s? 68s but that's diesel under wires?

Not that I think any will because training and cost.

Jesus we don't want them darn cans back. FL cannot wait to rid themselves of them. Parts let alone anything else would be a nightmare to source short term let alone training for us & fitters.

 

[Railperf]

Let’s hope then, they will train GEML drivers on 379s when the 360s go or more short forms.

It is more likely that some additional 317s could be transferred from WA once the 745/1s enter service. Especially as there seem to be GEML drivers trained on them already.

 

[SWTrainspottin]

How many of the 745 and 755s have entered service now? Appreciate any ideas, thanks.