Greater Anglia. Why the need for 745s and 720s

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A60stock

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So Greater Anglia ordered two different train types for both their intercity and suburban services. What was the point in this given both have the same top speed? Surely you could have just ordered the same stock but with the intercity ones having just one door and suburban ones having 2 doors each carriage? I would have thought ordering the 720s for all would be better due to their better acceleration over the 745s. All GA needed to do was amend any intended for Norwich services to intercity style layout and have a single door per carriage?
 
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Bletchleyite

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So Greater Anglia ordered two different train types for both their intercity and suburban services. What was the point in this given both have the same top speed? Surely you could have just ordered the same stock but with the intercity ones having just one door and suburban ones having 2 doors each carriage? I would have thought ordering the 720s for all would be better due to their better acceleration over the 745s. All GA needed to do was amend any intended for Norwich services to intercity style layout and have a single door per carriage?

Two words: level boarding.

If I was going to standardise, it'd not be on 720s.
 

100andthirty

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In any franchising process, the various bidders for the franchise will have decided they need new trains to win the bid. They will invite tenders from rolling stock suppliers with various options on numbers and delivery dates. In the case of Anglia, I suspect that neither Stadler nor Alstom (nee Bombardier) could meet the dates required if either one delivered the whole order. It also might have been the case that some tenderers declined to bid for parts of the requirement. All this will be confidential to Anglia. Off topic, but it was delivery dates that drove Trans Pennine express to buy three different types of train for its franchise. It is said that Hitachi were unable to offer the required delivery dates for an entire fleet of class 8XX.

Planned delivery dates and actual delivery dates are often entirely different, of course!
 

Neptune

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It also helps maintenance as Crown Point only has Stadler units allocated to it meaning it’s more efficient. Before it had wildly contrasting class 90, LHCS, 153, 156 & 170. They all need separate spares taking up space. Now it just has 745 & 755 from the same stable.

It’s not like GA haven’t streamlined their fleet from what they had before.
 

Domh245

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Two words: level boarding.

If I was going to standardise, it'd not be on 720s.

As previously discussed though, you have no chance of achieving the sort of capacity a 720 would manage with a FLIRT though - in the world we currently find ourselves in, you can argue about if the crowd swallowing capability of a 720 is needed, but anybody not ordering on the basis of continuing growth and maximum seats into Liverpool Street would have been laughed out of the bidding process
 

RailWonderer

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Previous answers are partly true but it was mainly because GA needed bi-mode units and Stadler were the only realistic solution. They needed their own depot, but a 38 strong order wasn't enough for Stadler to build a depot, so GA tacked on 20 745s to the order to make it worth Stadler's while.
 

Bletchleyite

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Previous answers are partly true but it was mainly because GA needed bi-mode units and Stadler were the only realistic solution. They needed their own depot, but a 38 strong order wasn't enough for Stadler to build a depot, so GA tacked on 20 745s to the order to make it worth Stadler's while.

Yes, I heard that too. Quite ironic that the best InterCity EMU the UK has seen in a while was essentially ordered to tick a box.
 

A60stock

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i wonder why no other operator has gone for 745s or equivalent? I am presuming they can run at 125mph if this was required?
 

hwl

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i wonder why no other operator has gone for 745s or equivalent? I am presuming they can run at 125mph if this was required?
Single door would kill dwell times (and will on West Anglia when it gets busy again).

For the replacing 90+Mk3 on the Norwich services they needs a reasonable but not ultimate uplift in capacity which was fairly easy when you have coaches instead of a loco and + DVT but not as much as a 720 with intercity type seating layout would have delivered.
 

dk1

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So Greater Anglia ordered two different train types for both their intercity and suburban services. What was the point in this given both have the same top speed? Surely you could have just ordered the same stock but with the intercity ones having just one door and suburban ones having 2 doors each carriage? I would have thought ordering the 720s for all would be better due to their better acceleration over the 745s. All GA needed to do was amend any intended for Norwich services to intercity style layout and have a single door per carriage?
Was all down to building the bimodes in the timescale required. Hitachi I have in the past been told where preferred but where too busy with the IET fleet. It’s also been said that the 755s where not enough for Stadler so therefore the 745 fleet came about.
 

Bletchleyite

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Single door would kill dwell times (and will on West Anglia when it gets busy again).

For the replacing 90+Mk3 on the Norwich services they needs a reasonable but not ultimate uplift in capacity which was fairly easy when you have coaches instead of a loco and + DVT but not as much as a 720 with intercity type seating layout would have delivered.

The 2+2 seated 730s ordered for LNR would be very suitable (with non sham First Class). However low floor is very much a "killer app".
 

Bald Rick

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Let us not forget that both fleets were due to be all delivered and fully in service 6 months ago.

One of the fleets is... one of the fleets isn’t.
 

D7666

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i wonder why no other operator has gone for 745s or equivalent? I am presuming they can run at 125mph if this was required?

Maybe because since 745s were ordered by Abellio no other operator has had any requirement for such a unit ?

Most of anything ordered since 745s have been for bi-modes (which the 745 is not) or high capacity \ outer suburban people movers (ditto 745 not).

No doubt some sort of cross over 745/755 long bi-mode could have been produced - but is any sane operator going to insert diesel power modules into 12car EMU with the result of losing more or less an entire coach length to the minium two modules needed ? And I doubt two would be enough for 125 mph.
 

43096

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No doubt some sort of cross over 745/755 long bi-mode could have been produced - but is any sane operator going to insert diesel power modules into 12car EMU with the result of losing more or less an entire coach length to the minium two modules needed ? And I doubt two would be enough for 125 mph.
If you need more than two modules, then the sensible thing to do is put them at each end of the train. You could call them “power cars” or “locomotives”….
 

Energy

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If you need more than two modules, then the sensible thing to do is put them at each end of the train. You could call them “power cars” or “locomotives”….
Or you could electrify and use EMUs, if it can support a 12 car train then it can probably support electrification.
 

Bletchleyite

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Or you could electrify and use EMUs, if it can support a 12 car train then it can probably support electrification.

There is that. The only type of self-powered vehicles we should really be considering is 2-car units on routes of very low demand/infrequent service. Everything else needs t'wires.
 

southern442

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I would not be totally surprised if 125mph Stadler units were sought after at some point. Obviously everyone is going Hitachi crazy at the moment but the Stadler units are some of the best on the network, and have a good interior layout. Visually to me they look sort of like a futuristic version of a Voyager and I could definitely see a 5-car variant being used on cross country type services.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would not be totally surprised if 125mph Stadler units were sought after at some point. Obviously everyone is going Hitachi crazy at the moment but the Stadler units are some of the best on the network, and have a good interior layout. Visually to me they look sort of like a futuristic version of a Voyager and I could definitely see a 5-car variant being used on cross country type services.

If, and it can't come too soon, the law changes to mandate level boarding on all new trains, Stadler would get an advantage, but most manufacturers do low-floor for mainland Europe so it's not exactly exclusive.
 

JonathanH

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If, and it can't come too soon, the law changes to mandate level boarding on all new trains, Stadler would get an advantage, but most manufacturers do low-floor for mainland Europe so it's not exactly exclusive.
Not just trains though - there would need to be quite a lot of platform rebuilding and straightening.

Possibly an idea for a speculative thread - which trains will see an early withdrawal due to not being compatible with level boarding?
 

StephenHunter

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Single door would kill dwell times (and will on West Anglia when it gets busy again).

For the replacing 90+Mk3 on the Norwich services they needs a reasonable but not ultimate uplift in capacity which was fairly easy when you have coaches instead of a loco and + DVT but not as much as a 720 with intercity type seating layout would have delivered.

They're double leaf doors on the 745; the Mark 3s were two single leaf ones.
 

hwl

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They're double leaf doors on the 745; the Mark 3s were two single leaf ones.
I was talking doors in reference to WAML where they are replacing existing two x double leaf door stock e.g 379s with far fewer doors one x double leaf on an airport service where dwell times are already an issue. No 90s + MK3 on WAML....

With the 745 it was easy to add huge capacity gains on Norwich services vs existing stock but not be worrying so much about other performance issues.
 

dk1

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But hugely important at Tottenham Hale where it limits overall WAML capacity.
Won’t matter when they go over to a sub fleet of class 720s on the Stansted Express. Plans afoot to concentrate the 745s on the GEML.
 

dk1

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Are you able to share any further details?
Just the internal rumour on the street mate. Nothing officially confirmed yet. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Possibility of a couple of extra 745/1s getting first class too but don’t think they’ll stretch to a cafe bar.
 

ABB125

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Just the internal rumour on the street mate. Nothing officially confirmed yet. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Possibility of a couple of extra 745/1s getting first class too but don’t think they’ll stretch to a cafe bar.
Thanks. I'd agree it makes sense, but surely there'd be a large surplus of units, even in the third Norwich service starts? Not that that's the biggest problem to overcome in the future! :D
 
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