Greater Manchester Combined Authority: Latest transport strategy draft publication

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is if my journey options are worse. I have nothing to gain from conversion of the Atherton line, but I may lose a fast link into Manchester.

In the last few months, I have used the Atherton line four times and each time, we were held at a signal on the approaches to Salford Crescent station. Was I unlucky or is this a normal occurance?

 

[yorksrob]

In the last few months, I have used the Atherton line four times and each time, we were held at a signal on the approaches to Salford Crescent station. Was I unlucky or is this a normal occurance?

It has happenned to me, but not that often.

 

[Mogster]

It’s hardly surprising that tram converting these Manchester heavy rail lines has got a favorable response.

When you’re used to 30 year old stock surrounded by poor infrastructure delivering an infrequent service your expectations are correspondingly very very low. It’s not as if there was a Thameslink style service previously...

Is it as good as it could be though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s hardly surprising that tram converting these Manchester heavy rail lines has got a favorable response.

When you’re used to 30 year old stock surrounded by poor infrastructure delivering an infrequent service your expectations are correspondingly very very low. It’s not as if there was a Thameslink style service previously...

Is it as good as it could be though?

No. Merseyrail demonstrates that you can do a quality heavy rail service - but it is more expensive both in terms of build and in terms of ongoing operating subsidy.

 

[Chester1]

It’s hardly surprising that tram converting these Manchester heavy rail lines has got a favorable response.

When you’re used to 30 year old stock surrounded by poor infrastructure delivering an infrequent service your expectations are correspondingly very very low. It’s not as if there was a Thameslink style service previously...

Is it as good as it could be though?

The location of tram stops hugely boosts the case for Metrolink over heavy rail, for suitable lines. The Railway Stations are not badly located but they are less convenient. The frequency helps too.

 

[Greybeard33]

The third route from Bury was via Heywood. It should be possible to open that route because it has been almost completely preserved by the ELR and a connection to the heavy rail network at Castleton. And, there is room to build a new heavy rail station in Bury almost next to the Metrolink station. However, the Heywood route is longer than the Metrolink route, about 13.3 miles* compared with 9.7 miles. There will be only 4 stops (if trains stopped at all stations) compared with 9 stops on Metrolink. I think it likely that on the basis of new trains, the heavy rail service would be marginally quicker than Metrolink and provide a more comfortable but less frequent service. Building an additional park and ride station somewhere around Heap Bridge might reduce traffic going into Manchester via the M66, especially if the service ran through Victoria to other stations in central Manchester and beyond. So, rather than messing about with tram-trains between Bury and Rochdale, it would be better to implement this service with the expectation that eventually the current problem with upgrading the line through Oxford Road and Piccadilly line will be sorted out sooner rather than later.

Surely the best way to turn the Atherton line into an S-bahn type system would be to run the trains through to Stalybridge/Rochdale/Heywood.

The Southport services via Atherton (2tph) already run through to Rochdale and on to Leeds via Brighouse and Blackburn via Burnley respectively.

The Cebr Rossendale Rail Report last year recommended a National Rail service to Bury Bolton Street via Heywood. https://www.lancashirebusinessview....2/Rossendale-Rail-Report_final_30.11.2018.pdf.

Perhaps the services from Kirkby and Wigan Wallgate via Atherton, currently planned to terminate at Victoria, could be extended to Bury Bolton Street via Heywood? This would have the added benefit of avoiding terminations in the Victoria through platforms.[/QUOTE]

 

[yorksrob]

The Southport services via Atherton (2tph) already run through to Rochdale and on to Leeds via Brighouse and Blackburn via Burnley respectively.

The Cebr Rossendale Rail Report last year recommended a National Rail service to Bury Bolton Street via Heywood. https://www.lancashirebusinessview....2/Rossendale-Rail-Report_final_30.11.2018.pdf.

Perhaps the services from Kirkby and Wigan Wallgate via Atherton, currently planned to terminate at Victoria, could be extended to Bury Bolton Street via Heywood? This would have the added benefit of avoiding terminations in the Victoria through platforms.

[/QUOTE]

Sounds a very good idea to me.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

No. Merseyrail demonstrates that you can do a quality heavy rail service - but it is more expensive both in terms of build and in terms of ongoing operating subsidy.

From my experience of both, Merseyrail delivers a far more reliable service than Metrolink with far fewer cancellations and delays. Some of the tram services around Manchester are extremely slow, particularly when the trams get caught up in road traffic. The train takes about 10 mins from Eccles to the city centre whereas the tram takes about 35 mins. Similar comparisons apply from Rochdale although the tram route is much longer. However from Altrincham the reverse is true. Nevertheless the train still beats the tram by 4 mins from Altrincham to Piccadilly even though the train does a huge detour via Stockport. Tram services on public roads are simply too fragile.

 

[ic31420]

The Cebr Rossendale Rail Report last year recommended a National Rail service to Bury Bolton Street via Heywood. https://www.lancashirebusinessview....2/Rossendale-Rail-Report_final_30.11.2018.pdf.

I dunno how that passed me by. Sounds quite compelling that something ought to be done. There seems little appetite for it within the Elr, with those involved in the elr little empire on the uelr dismissing it out of hand. It is frustrating that as a Ramsbottom resident metrolink is out of reach while the elr stands idle. Bury is my nearest metrolink station, but driving there doesn't make any sense, our station of choice would be Radcliffe but then parking is impossible Mon - Fri after 9am probably before, Whitefield is an option if my mate will let me park in his yard. But by then I might has well have driven to heavy rail. By and large I drive to heavy rail in Bolton suburbs. Of course that service has been dire for the last few years.

My Mrs is a none railway type and frequently goes on about how wonderful it would be if the trams could come out to Rammy and Rawtenstall.

Whilst bemoan metrolink for not allowing me to take bikes if I'm heading in to the city for anything like shops, socialising or where I'd need to park it's not bad at all. The problem comes when it replaces a cross city service.

I note that there is mention in the report of issues surrounding capacity through Manchester (and presumably Victoria) which already appears to be evident despite the second crossing. That's before we start adding in Wigan to the mix. If we start going on these galloping distances then the 50mph top speed is too low, then you need to sort the ride out.

 

[Greybeard33]

I note that there is mention in the report of issues surrounding capacity through Manchester (and presumably Victoria) which already appears to be evident despite the second crossing. That's before we start adding in Wigan to the mix. If we start going on these galloping distances then the 50mph top speed is too low, then you need to sort the ride out.

Although the Atherton line to Wigan and the Brinnington line to Marple are already restricted to 50mph as heavy rail, and have been for many years!

 

[Mogster]

Why is the Atherton line limited to 50mph? It’s easily the shortest route from Wigan to Manchester.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Is this stating the obvious. Of course a double length tram, train, whatever will take twice as long to pass any point, irrespective of speed.

That's not the point of the reply.

Yes, it does take longer to pass at a lower speed for longer.
Therefore making the entire journey slower.

 

[WatcherZero]

From my experience of both, Merseyrail delivers a far more reliable service than Metrolink with far fewer cancellations and delays. Some of the tram services around Manchester are extremely slow, particularly when the trams get caught up in road traffic. The train takes about 10 mins from Eccles to the city centre whereas the tram takes about 35 mins. Similar comparisons apply from Rochdale although the tram route is much longer. However from Altrincham the reverse is true. Nevertheless the train still beats the tram by 4 mins from Altrincham to Piccadilly even though the train does a huge detour via Stockport. Tram services on public roads are simply too fragile.

There is only one station between Eccles and the City Centre, its in essence an express service. By comparison there are 12 between Eccles and the City Centre on the tram offering a much wider choice of destinations and much higher catchment, that's why theres around five times as many people using the Eccles Interchange stop versus the rail station.

 

[ic31420]

Although the Atherton line to Wigan and the Brinnington line to Marple are already restricted to 50mph as heavy rail, and have been for many years!

Out of curiosity how many years I last used the line regularly in 2002 when it seemed much faster.

Now I tend to go via Bolton

 

[Greybeard33]

There is only one station between Eccles and the City Centre, its in essence an express service. By comparison there are 12 between Eccles and the City Centre on the tram offering a much wider choice of destinations and much higher catchment, that's why theres around five times as many people using the Eccles Interchange stop versus the rail station.

The tram service from Eccles Interchange to Manchester is five times more frequent than the heavy rail service from Eccles rail station.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Why is the Atherton line limited to 50mph? It’s easily the shortest route from Wigan to Manchester.

It used to be 70mph but the former jointed-rail track had deteriorated so much that the limit was reduced to 50mph. When welded rails were installed a few years ago the limit could easily have been increased but for some reason this did not happen. It is somewhat of a mystery.

 

[WatcherZero]

Signalling has traditionally been the limitation. The fixed blocks on the Atherton line are very long and in CP4? action plan NR mentioned it was the main barrier to increasing frequency/speed of services on the line as they would be constantly hitting occupied sections. They seem to have rebalanced, lowering the speed to increase the frequency.

 

[yorksrob]

Even then, the trip from Atherton to Manchester is speedy enough.

 

[Mogster]

Signalling has traditionally been the limitation. The fixed blocks on the Atherton line are very long and in CP4? action plan NR mentioned it was the main barrier to increasing frequency/speed of services on the line as they would be constantly hitting occupied sections. They seem to have rebalanced, lowering the speed to increase the frequency.

Thanks for the info, that makes sense.

I remember the track being upgraded about 10 years ago, before that it was seriously bumpy...

 

[Mogster]

Even then, the trip from Atherton to Manchester is speedy enough.

When the Bolton line’s blocked and you get diverted via Atherton with no stops you realise how fast it actually can be, even at 50mph.

 

[edwin_m]

The Atherton line was re-signalled a few years back having previously had only one intermediate box which I think was permanently switched out. Wonder what speed and capacity the new signalling was designed to.

 

[yorksrob]

When the Bolton line’s blocked and you get diverted via Atherton with no stops you realise how fast it actually can be, even at 50mph.

Yes, I've only been on a stopper on it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The Atherton line was re-signalled a few years back having previously had only one intermediate box which I think was permanently switched out. Wonder what speed and capacity the new signalling was designed to.

Apart from minor repositionings the resignalling was a like-for-like replacement. However as the new signals are modular the distants could be fully fledged block signals provided extra sections are installed. Note the resignalling used axle counters, not track circuits, so such an upgrade would not be expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from minor repositionings the resignalling was a like-for-like replacement. However as the new signals are modular the distants could be fully fledged block signals provided extra sections are installed. Note the resignalling used axle counters, not track circuits, so such an upgrade would not be expensive.

On lines a bit like this it's not the top speed that's the main issue, it's the stopping and starting. A Metrolink tram has vastly superior acceleration to the line's usual diet of 14x and 15x, and as such would lop a load of time off the journey. Equally, 25kV electrification and modern EMUs (even Class 323s and the likes) would achieve the same, though probably at higher cost both on a one-off and on an operating subsidy basis.

 

[Greybeard33]

Apart from minor repositionings the resignalling was a like-for-like replacement. However as the new signals are modular the distants could be fully fledged block signals provided extra sections are installed. Note the resignalling used axle counters, not track circuits, so such an upgrade would not be expensive.

I thought that the resignalling had enabled a 4tph frequency on the Atherton line (as specified in the Northern franchise agreement for December 2017, although only 3tph currently), versus 2tph before.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I thought that the resignalling had enabled a 4tph frequency on the Atherton line (as specified in the Northern franchise agreement for December 2017, although only 3tph currently), versus 2tph before.

Peak hour extras have long seen to a 4tph frequency on the line. The real question is to what extent the stopping pattern may be constrained, assuming that there is any demand for all trains to serve all stations. Given the available width of track bed, apart from more recently rebuilt road bridges, I could see reinstatement of 4 tracks allowing fast services for Southport/Kirkby (or Skelmersdale) with a higher frequency stopping service at the Manchester end of the route: these could well be tram-trains which branch off the route to reach Leigh.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah they've had the peak extras for years but its not sustainable in a full days operation with the potential for knock on delays/missed timings, they achieved it essentially by cannibalising the shoulder hours.

The vast majority of the 4 line track bed is intact, they've just plopped the radio towers in it which would have to be moved, also a few stations would need some refurbing as often they've maintained the centre island and decommissioned the two single platform faces. In fact a lot of what they could do with 4 tracking would be achievable just by reinstating the lost platforms at some stations so that trains could pass easily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah they've had the peak extras for years but its not sustainable in a full days operation with the potential for knock on delays/missed timings, they achieved it essentially by cannibalising the shoulder hours.

The vast majority of the 4 line track bed is intact, they've just plopped the radio towers in it which would have to be moved, also a few stations would need some refurbing as often they've maintained the centre island and decommissioned the two single platform faces. In fact a lot of what they could do with 4 tracking would be achievable just by reinstating the lost platforms at some stations so that trains could pass easily.

A sensible thing to do (which the UK rarely does) is to design the long-term timetable and train length and install loops to allow that service to be operated.

 

[yorksrob]

On lines a bit like this it's not the top speed that's the main issue, it's the stopping and starting. A Metrolink tram has vastly superior acceleration to the line's usual diet of 14x and 15x, and as such would lop a load of time off the journey. Equally, 25kV electrification and modern EMUs (even Class 323s and the likes) would achieve the same, though probably at higher cost both on a one-off and on an operating subsidy basis.

But with EMU's, you wouldn't lose the time benefit by taking a massive detour around the town centre.

 

[edwin_m]

The vast majority of the 4 line track bed is intact, they've just plopped the radio towers in it which would have to be moved, also a few stations would need some refurbing as often they've maintained the centre island and decommissioned the two single platform faces. In fact a lot of what they could do with 4 tracking would be achievable just by reinstating the lost platforms at some stations so that trains could pass easily.

Most of the Atherton line stations only ever had a single island platform, as the two southern tracks were intended for fast Manchester-Liverpool trains. And the series of bridges where the M60 and its tributaries pass over were only built to span two tracks.