Greenwich to London Terminals Permitted Routes

[danthekyle]

I have a Greenwich to London Terminals season ticket, but the Greenwich trains are often too busy to board at London Bridge in the evening.

Can I use the ticket to travel to Lewisham and then use the DLR to Greenwich? This appears as a route on the National Rail website as far as I can see.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm pretty sure that using the DLR is only an option if acceptance is in place. You are free to take any train from London Bridge to Cannon Street so you can board an empty Greenwich bound train from there.

 

[bb21]

Agreed with Mike. Some of my colleagues often "doubleback" to Cannon Street or Charing Cross in the high peaks to ensure a seat, even if it meant a slightly extended journey time.

 

[robbob700]

This route was allowed until the end of last year to allow Greenwich line passengers to access Charing Cross while Cannon Street services were not stopping at London Bridge. As MikeWh says, its now only available when specific ticket acceptance is in place.

 

[danthekyle]

Thanks all, that does make sense.

Is it an error that the route appears as valid when looking at Greenwich - London Terminals tickets on journey planners? It shows the route when the £3.50 anytime single is selected, for example.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Is it an error that the route appears as valid when looking at Greenwich - London Terminals tickets on journey planners?

I think it's a bug in certain journey planners, including the one that National Rail Enquiries uses, but not all of them, where they are not handling the DLR leg of the journey properly.

 

[telstarbox]

The situation should improve from the timetable change in May when more services will be introduced on the Greenwich Line.

 

[danthekyle]

Thanks all. Shame it's not possible but I do understand why.

It does seem very odd that many journey planners let you buy standard Greenwich - London tickets showing the route via Lewisham, on which they are not actually valid. Isn't it essentially miss-selling? There are no gates on the DLR so I assume anyone holding a paper ticket for this route could be given a penalty fare when using the DLR?

The situation should improve from the timetable change in May when more services will be introduced on the Greenwich Line.

Indeed, very much looking forward to the 6tph being restored in May.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks all. Shame it's not possible but I do understand why.

It does seem very odd that many journey planners let you buy standard Greenwich - London tickets showing the route via Lewisham, on which they are not actually valid. Isn't it essentially miss-selling? There are no gates on the DLR so I assume anyone holding a paper ticket for this route could be given a penalty fare when using the DLR?



Indeed, very much looking forward to the 6tph being restored in May.

Without a relevant itinerary to accompany the journey, a penalty fare or prosecution could result. However, if you could produce an appropriate itinerary produced by an approved journey planner (e.g. National Rail, the "authoritative" journey planner) then, as the passenger cannot be expected to know whether or not the produced itinerary is correct, it must be accepted, regardless of whether it is a mistake or not.

 

[danthekyle]

Without a relevant itinerary to accompany the journey, a penalty fare or prosecution could result. However, if you could produce an appropriate itinerary produced by an approved journey planner (e.g. National Rail, the "authoritative" journey planner) then, as the passenger cannot be expected to know whether or not the produced itinerary is correct, it must be accepted, regardless of whether it is a mistake or not.

I see, so although this ticket shouldn't be valid for travel on this route, in reality it is valid for travel, as no penalty could be issued?

Is it likely to be fixed in journey planners at any point soon? I believe this is actually quite a big issue. Obviously anyone traveling from London Bridge will likely use a direct train - but if you are travelling from Charing Cross or Waterloo East, the route via Lewisham is attractive (the same number of changes as via London Bridge, and a comparable journey time). It shows up in the National Rail journey planner almost as frequently as the route via London Bridge. Therefore I would imagine many people purchase this ticket and use this route.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Without a relevant itinerary to accompany the journey, a penalty fare or prosecution could result. However, if you could produce an appropriate itinerary produced by an approved journey planner (e.g. National Rail, the "authoritative" journey planner) then, as the passenger cannot be expected to know whether or not the produced itinerary is correct, it must be accepted, regardless of whether it is a mistake or not.

That applies to National Rail TOCs, but the DLR is not an NR TOC.

 

[telstarbox]

Of course the other option is to move to Lewisham and you get cheaper fruit and veg too!

 

[danthekyle]

In case anyone is interested, I have heard back from my query to Southeastern regarding this (only took them three months).

They said:

Based on the information I have, travelling on a weekday taking a Metro from Greenwich to Lewisham and Lewisham to London Bridge would be a valid journey based on your ticket, for example, there is a timetabled service departing 06:38 Greenwich changing at Lewisham, then taking the 06:52 arriving at London Bridge 07:02.

I recommend that you can continue to take this route until advised otherwise.

They have added that they will get another team to look into why the barriers at Lewisham won't open.

This implies they believe rail tickets to be valid on the DLR. I imagine that view isn't shared here?

Slightly worryingly, they also added:

Reviewing your journey history for your Key Smartcard, I can see touch ins and touch outs at London Waterloo East. It is my understanding that if you have a ticket marked as London Terminals as the destination it is only valid on reasonable routes to the first London Terminal station that you arrive at, unless there is a ticket acceptance in place due to disruption or engineering works.

I really hope they haven't given this information out to other passengers, who would have no reason to doubt information given to them directly from a TOC.

 

[30907]

This implies they believe rail tickets to be valid on the DLR. I imagine that view isn't shared here?

They use the word Metro for the first journey - I have never heard of this term in that context, and I wonder if they think Greenwich to Lewisham is London Overground?

A pure guess mind you. And wrong, too - see post #18 below

 

[telstarbox]

You can definitely use it to Charing Cross. From NRE:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#terminals

 

[Haywain]

The fact that the second part of their response is such high quality garbage throws significant doubt on the claims made in the first part!

 

[talldave]

The fact that the second part of their response is such high quality garbage throws significant doubt on the claims made in the first part!

The ticketing garbage spouted by SE is starting to reach GTR levels of incompetence. Such a shame when the basics are wrong.

 

[Joe Paxton]

They use the word Metro for the first journey - I have never heard of this term in that context, and I wonder if they think Greenwich to Lewisham is London Overground? A pure guess mind you.

I think "metro" is the generic term that some journey planners (including NRE) use for non-Tube, non-NR modes of rail travel.

 

[Joe Paxton]

You can definitely use it to Charing Cross. From NRE:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#terminals

Or Blackfriars, or City Thameslink, or indeed Vauxhall (via Waterloo East and Waterloo 'main') - the last is one I suspect a great many aren't aware of.

 

[Haywain]

Or Blackfriars, or City Thameslink, or indeed Vauxhall (via Waterloo East and Waterloo 'main') - the last is one I suspect a great many aren't aware of.

In fairness the Vauxhall option does seem counter-intuitive.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think "metro" is the generic term that some journey planners (including NRE) use for non-Tube, non-NR modes of rail travel.

Yes, definitely. It sounds like the person writing Southeastern's response is just parroting back the output from the IPTIS journey planner (which powers both NRE and the Southeastern sites), but the bug in that journey planner in allowing travel on the DLR was the reason for the OP's getting in touch with them in the first place! So we are no further on, it seems to me.

 

[lewesroad]

I think "metro" is the generic term that some journey planners (including NRE) use for non-Tube, non-NR modes of rail travel.

Southeastern themselves group their services as Mainline, Metro and High Speed.

 

[A Challenge]

This is the DLR not any SE station.