Grimsby train worker sacked, TPE South staff plan strike.

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by GrimsbyPacer, 20 May 2015.

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  1. GrimsbyPacer

    GrimsbyPacer Established Member

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    http://m.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/RMT...train-worker/story-26537953-detail/story.html

    Here's the link.
    --- Weblink post above --- --- Quoted news post below ---
    I'll like to add that the Cleethorpes to Doncaster Sunday service is a bus more likely than a train this year., or it seams to be. So this strike won't be too bad.
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2015
  2. Crossforth

    Crossforth Established Member

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    All I will say is, having read the TPE report into the incident, I do NOT support this strike. That article is heavily flawed!
     
  3. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

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    ...and the TPE article definitely isn't flawed? In any dispute, the truth will inevitably fall somewhere between the version of events stated by each side, and I'm sure that this one is no different.
     
  4. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    It also assumes the correct internal procedures were followed leading up to someone being dismissed..............
     
  5. RM-Taylor

    RM-Taylor Member

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    The Grimsby telegraph article states strike action for every Sunday but the dates listed are for every Saturday on the website beginning this Saturday, the 23rd.

     
  6. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    At face value in this case, it is a shame that procedure has to take precedence over common sense. Might have been a very different story had the TPE worker initiated the emergency stop procedure, caught the youth off balance and/or pulled him under the train.

    There must be more to this than meets the eye
     
  7. Crossforth

    Crossforth Established Member

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    Considering the TPE article states the events that happened in accordance with the CCTV footage and the OTMR data, I'd say it's fairly accurate.
     
  8. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    Probably not. The guard allowed the train to keep moving when he could see that someone was clinging to it. He can ask Christopher McGee about that if he wants, he should be getting out of prison around about now.

    It comes down to whether that should be a sackable offence or not. I can see the guard's point of view if he thought a sudden stop would have been more dangerous, but then I can also see TPE's point of view given their recent RAIB telling-off. It probably is a case of being damned either way, which is unfair, so I can see why the RMT members are worried: it could be them next time. Especially as if he'd used an intermediate door to dispatch rather than the cab door with the droplight he'd have had no chance to see them...
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2015
  9. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    It's one of those kind of incidents I dread really as you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. TPE aren't interested in providing platform staff though so if they're willing to operate a station like Grimsby in that manner that's their problem.
     
  10. 158801

    158801 Member

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    It is considered dangerous to lean out of the window of a moving train. If I did this and was injured then my employer would blame me.

    So, when I dispatch I train I make sure that it's safe and then look out of the window (as I am required to do) but I don't lean out of the window as the train departs.

    If, after the train starts moving, something happens (like surfing) then I can not be held responsible for something I don't see !
     
  11. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    If I took anything out of the James Street incident (and many others) it is that you absolutely have to follow procedure. If the guard had hit the emergency plunger as required and the idiot fell to his death then he would have been exonerated.

    I am finding it difficult to subscribe to the theory of damned if you do and damned if you don't. We are hammered with the need to follow set policy, rules and procedures. There have been just as many incidents where a Driver has been exonerated because they had followed the right instructions.

    As always there is no doubt more to the story than what has been posted. It is hard out there guys and gals.

    Work Safe

    Com.
     
  12. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    Damned if you do: If you press the emergency stop and the youth goes under the train, whilst TPE might say "you followed procedure, we wash our hands of it" the gaurd would have to live knowing that they were effectively responsible for killing the youth, as well as potentially having a large amount of press attention. It's always quite odd how we hear these youths who have died doing something stupid or illegal described in the press as "little angels", "absolutely innocent", "full of potential" etc. The public wouldn't care that the official procedure is to emergency stop the train and get them off that way, they would react in a typically knee-jerky way.

    Damned if you don't: Don't follow procedure, let youth get off of their own accord, TPE say - "you didn't follow procedure, bye" and you're out of a job.
     
  13. CharlieSpotted

    CharlieSpotted Member

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    "Train Surfing?!" - that's a thing? I mean, how dumb do you have to be?
     
  14. ANorthernGuard

    ANorthernGuard Established Member

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    If you don't follow Procedures nowadays you are in for the high jump and sent packing. Everyone knows this. Its a shame a colleague has lost his job but procedures HAVE to come first and sadly common sense second.
     
  15. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    It has been for years. Some of the Networkers down here had their front ends modified to prevent the practice.
     
  16. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    Not being knowledgeable as to the famous "railway by-laws" that seem to cover a vast number of situations on and around railway stations, which particular railway by-laws come into force when such stupidity as "train surfing" so occurs, so can someone blessed with the full knowledge of railway by-laws explain the matter on this thread, please.

    Is this display of stupidity some thing that is of long-standing or just a recent phenomenon at the railway station at Grimsby and are the police aware of this activity that occurs there?
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2015
  17. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

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    Any action taken against the 'surfer' ?
     
  18. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    Goes to prove that as Guards we have to have "Zero Tolerance", and stick to our guns, be it with Platform Staff, Control, BTP or Delay Attribution.

    We can get pressured by all of these to do things we feel can uncomfortable with and are ultimately going to be our responsibility when it all goes wrong.

    A group of youths on the platform attempting to do something stupid? Refuse to move the train until the platform is clear - if this means waiting twenty or thirty minutes for police to turn up, so be it! After the delay minutes build up, and complaints roll in, then it might be seen as a problem.

    I've known a colleague wait this long on a platform with a late train as there was an incapable drunk on the platform staggering around and it took that long for police to turn up. Nothing happened to him.

    Personally, on late trains and unmanned platforms, I don't lock the doors until the platform is empty. I don't care how long it takes (I make a point of NOT looking at a clock until I'm totally ready to move). Supporting my family takes priority over everything in my book.
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2015
  19. Bodiddly

    Bodiddly Member

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    Am I right in saying that Scotrail guards are not allowed to open/close doors from the back cab on class 170's? I believe they have to use an intermediary door control. This then means that they do not have the outside view to the very rear of the train thus any idiot trying to train surf would not be seen by the guard until he/she re-entered the back cab. What then, would they apply an emergency brake or cab to cab the driver and ask him/her to slow the train to a stop?
    If this is a breach of safety protocol then I would expect the guard to be given a please explain maybe followed by a number 1 or a severe reprimand but to be sacked seems a bit excessive. Again, is there a little more to this story than what's came out?
     
  20. R4_GRN

    R4_GRN Member

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    Is this a case of a committee of twelve managers taking a month to decide if the guard got it wrong making a split second decision to protect the life of the idiot surfing the train?


    Rules assume that the public are responsible adults not juveniles with a disregard for their and fellow passengers safety.

    Feel sorry for the guard, he has lost his job!
     
  21. GrimsbyPacer

    GrimsbyPacer Established Member

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    I've never seen nor heard of this happening before.
    I bet it's fuelled by alcohol. I hope this doesn't become a trend.
    If I saw someone doing it I'd push them off the train onto the platform.
     
  22. TDK

    TDK Established Member

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    Only damned if you don't, if he had stopped the train and the youth had got injured or killed he would still have his job.
     
  23. GrimsbyPacer

    GrimsbyPacer Established Member

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    http://m.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/Tra...ecision-sack/story-26541832-detail/story.html

    The Grimsby Telegraph have added more.

    --- Weblink post above --- --- Quote post below ---
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2015
  24. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    Sadly true. He used his judgement and (possibly and only possibly) saved him from injury or death and is now paying for it.

    Like all dispatch style issues, his best course of action would be to stop the train and refuse to allow it to move until the youths were off the platform, if that involved a 45min delay waiting for police to arrive then so be it.
     
  25. Chrism20

    Chrism20 Member

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    We have had it on the trams up here in Edinburgh but I've never heard of it on the railway.

    There is a picture on the link I've posted.

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...-tram-surfers-putting-lives-at-risk-1-3744535
     
  26. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    Train surfing is very common in some areas.

    If you see someone doing it please don't ever push them off the train onto the platform. It's the most stupid thing you could do in such a situation. You may think it will be heroic but not only are you placing yourself in danger of being dragged under the train yourself if they fight back but if you touch them and they fall onto the platform then roll under the train and die you will be in court for manslaughter, if not murder and it will most probably all be on CCTV - if you see it don't ever try and help but instead try to alert staff or use a help point emergancy button etc.
     
  27. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I wonder if it would be that easy.

    Had the emergency brakes been applied and the idiot lost his life because he lost his grip and fell onto the track awkwardly, could it be deemed negligent on the part of the guard because he could have reasonably foreseen that following this protocol blindly could have resulted in harm in the particular set of circumstances, thereby being prosecuted by the CPS?

    I can only echo this advice.

    It would be the most dangerous thing to do.
     
  28. DaleCooper

    DaleCooper Established Member

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    Wasn't there a thread a while back about a youth doing it in Germany?
     
  29. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    It's very common in some parts of the world. There's an article on the BBC website from 2006 about it in South Africa.
     
  30. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

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    Are all youths now to be called 'vulnerable members of the public' ?

    Considering what he did, I'd say 'yob' was more appropriate.
     
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