Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

[PhilipW]

It's Friday 11 October and England are playing a World Cup qualifier match at Wembley in the evening.

The result was that the 5-car Class 444 on the 23:05 was overcrowded; it was not until Winchester, an hour later, that everyone had a seat. Some of these late evening services to Bournemouth are often overcrowded, but this one was very seriously overcrowded, no doubt in large part due to football fans returning home. I stood until Basingstoke.

Surely South West Trains could have planned ahead and put on extra carriages.
"No extra carriages available" -- I don't think so at 23:00 in the evening.

South West Trains carried a lot of extra passengers and made a lot more money on Friday evening. That money appears to have all gone into their profits and not for the benefits of the passengers.

Surely train companies have to be responsive to the needs of the passengers. Apparently not so, in this case.

What did the guard have to say about it ---- absolutely nothing, not a word from him over the speakers.

Standing room only on services approaching midnight -- utterly ridiculous.

 

[Muzer]

I would hazard a guess that any unused carriages at that time of the night would need to be somewhere by the morning to form a morning service that would be incompatible with them being in Poole. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[causton]

Unfortunately this is normal on services round my way. The xx06/xx36 services out of Kings Cross are regularly full and standing, especially after Finsbury Park when all the tube passengers join!

 

[NSEFAN]

It's Friday 11 October and England are playing a World Cup qualifier match at Wembley in the evening.

The result was that the 5-car Class 444 on the 23:05 was overcrowded; it was not until Winchester, an hour later, that everyone had a seat. Some of these late evening services to Bournemouth are often overcrowded, but this one was very seriously overcrowded, no doubt in large part due to football fans returning home. I stood until Basingstoke.

Surely South West Trains could have planned ahead and put on extra carriages.
"No extra carriages available" -- I don't think so at 23:00 in the evening.

South West Trains carried a lot of extra passengers and made a lot more money on Friday evening. That money appears to have all gone into their profits and not for the benefits of the passengers.

Surely train companies have to be responsive to the needs of the passengers. Apparently not so, in this case.

What did the guard have to say about it ---- absolutely nothing, not a word from him over the speakers.

Standing room only on services approaching midnight -- utterly ridiculous.

What is the loading on this service normally like? Also, do TOCs employ people to work out how local/national events will affect the daily demand? I don't follow football so I don't know what time this event started or ended, but perhaps SWT weren't expecting so many people to want to use the train at that hour?

I would hazard a guess that any unused carriages at that time of the night would need to be somewhere by the morning to form a morning service that would be incompatible with them being in Poole. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

It was a Friday evening, so with a reduced weekend service the next day it should have been easier to source another unit to provide capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember coming back from a concert at the Bolton Reebok stadium and to their credit, Northern put on an extra rake of DMU's back to Manchester late at night. Yes the train was crowded, but they got us back home.

 

[jopsuk]

Typically TOCs where the line directly serves an event/sporting venue will be aware of the events and make formation and even stopping pattern changes to suit if possible. This does raise a good point, to be honest, that especially with London events/sports matches more than just the directly affected TOCs should be planning for spikes

 

[pompeyfan]

If it was a domestic match for the FA CUP etc then I could understand strengthing services, you'd have 35k people from one area on a mass migration (fair play to southern on each Portsmouth trip to wembley all services were 8/12 cars), however with england it does seem to shift the goal posts, there's a lot more dispersion and I can't expect they were expecting a huge up turn, was for example any other long distance unit well loaded as well?

I don't buy the 'it's a Saturday' argument either, I accept the run out is a lot slower but as far as I'm aware the core daytime frequency remains the same.

 

[Andrewlong]

It feel that SWT hadn't really thought about it or planned for it. Does anyone have experiences of travelling with other TOCs that night?

 

[Simon11]

It appears that everyone got on the train, then what's the issue?

I stand most days on my commute to work which is over an hour, what is the difference to the journey being at midnight?

TOC's have special event groups set up to deal with situations where there will be additional demand. They can't manage every event are there are thousands across the network.

 

[EM2]

This is an 8-car Greater Anglia service from Liverpool Street, any day from about 22:00 onwards:

 

[PhilipW]

What is the loading on this service normally like?

All the xx.05 and xx.35 Bournemouth/Weymouth are well used in the evenings. They run as 10-car Class 444 services during the weekday evening rush and on the 19:05 (I think) to cater for the off-peak rush and then drop down to 5-cars for the rest of the evening. (Somebody with access to allocations may wish to confirm or correct that).

During the week with a combination of leisure travellers and late commuters services leaving around 21:00 can be full and often standing. At the weekend a surge comes later. I have often left Waterloo around 22:00 on a Saturday and the train has been full and standing to Basingstoke. So it would be quite typical that the 23:05 would leave Waterloo full on a Friday or Saturday. That said, I have never seen it as full as it was yesterday; if there had been 10-cars, I suspect 8 to 9 would have been full.

With increasing train usage, the concept that there is no need to run long trains after 19:00 in the evening I would argue is living in the past. Here in SWT land, the time has surely come to run some more 10-car services. Others will have to examine load factors more closely and decide which services need to be strengthened. I suspect they may be the ones that pick up at Clapham Junction. There is quite a lot of business from there in the evening and people are often boarding already full trains. The 10-cars could just go to Southampton with the extra set being detached there rather than at Bournemouth as happens during the day. That would work.

I have never travelled home on the 00:05 from Waterloo, but have heard that is often very very busy at the weekends. I read once that SWT had to put a 12-car Class 450 set on it to cater for demand. That is just a heresay comment, it may or may not be true; I don't know what the normal formation is.

I don't think this problem is going away. The case for longer late evening trains seems quite powerful. I would like to think that SWT would take the initiative and do something about it rather not than be cajoled into doing something later.

 

[pemma]

It appears that everyone got on the train, then what's the issue?

TOCs are supposed to aim for 0% standing outside of weekday peak hours and for no-one having to stand for more than 20 minutes.

 

[PhilipW]

It appears that everyone got on the train, then what's the issue?

I stand most days on my commute to work which is over an hour, what is the difference to the journey being at midnight?

Oh dear, If this is the best we can aim for .... overcrowded trains at midnight, things are in a poor state.

 

[pemma]

Typically TOCs where the line directly serves an event/sporting venue will be aware of the events and make formation and even stopping pattern changes to suit if possible. This does raise a good point, to be honest, that especially with London events/sports matches more than just the directly affected TOCs should be planning for spikes

It's not just in London that happens in. An off-peak Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service I was on a few weeks back was overcrowded. Why? It had around 50 extra passengers (on what's usually a quite busy service) who looked like they were heading for Leeds for the Leeds festival.

 

[185]

This is an 8-car Greater Anglia service from Liverpool Street, any day from about 22:00 onwards:

Tonnes of room, you could drive a bus throught there.

Just wait 'til you move to the grim, dark North of England. You wanna see where I work :P

 

[pemma]

Oh dear, If this is the best we can aim for .... overcrowded trains at midnight, things are in a poor state.

Sometimes it is unavoidable though. When Liverpool FC won the Champions League in 2005 thousands of people headed to Liverpool for the victory parade which happened 90 minutes later than scheduled due to the team's flight being delayed. TPE strengthened their last service out of Liverpool Lime Street to 8 carriages (they still had 158s then) and the 8 carriage train had more passengers than seats. Now in that situation TPE did well to strengthen a train at short notice, to the maximum length the calling points could take but the extra carriages weren't enough to prevent people having to stand.

 

[306024]

That picture should be from an 8 car 315 so the train can't be any longer. No different to any tube train and only really crowded between Stratford and Ilford, about 10 minutes. A bit different to standing all the way to Winchester.

 

[EM2]

That picture should be from an 8 car 315 so the train can't be any longer. No different to any tube train and only really crowded between Stratford and Ilford, about 10 minutes. A bit different to standing all the way to Winchester.

I've stood right through to Brentwood a number of times late in the evening.

 

[306024]

Really? Unless there has been some incident, there are always seats after Romford, as I regularly see from my train speeding past on the main line.

 

[455driver]

So a thread moaning about having to stand because everyone from that area went to the pub after a mongball match and all caught one train turns into a thread about Romford (where on the SW mainline is that because I cant find it ).

As for the "there are loads of trains in sidings so why couldnt the train be strengthened" comments, do you actually have a clue how stock allocation works?
Every piece of rolling stock is on a diagram* that maximises the use before an exam is due so taking a unit off its diagram would mess everything up because not only would the the train be in the wrong place for its next working but the mileage would be all wrong with the unit possibly going over mileage and so requiring maintenance earlier than the diagram allows, yes things are run to the wire (this is also the reasons the 450/5s get to Portsmouth etc during disruption as they are normally on low mileage (but hard working) diagrams so can be pinched without busting the mileage limits.

There simply is no spare rolling stock available to strengthen trains at a moments notice and the TOCs would like it if there was as well!


* each diagram is for 1 unit so a 12 coach train will be formed of 3 units on 3 seperate diagrams hence Clapham Yard (and other depots) swapping units from one 12 coach formation to another 12 coach formation every day, it might seem silly but that is what the book says they should work to.

 

[EM2]

So a thread moaning about having to stand because everyone from that area went to the pub after a mongball match and all caught one train turns into a thread about Romford (where on the SW mainline is that because I cant find it ).

The point being that a late-night train to Poole being 'grossly overcrowded' and 'things are in a poor state' because of an event that happens occasionally is a one-off (or a few-off ), whereas some services are like that all the time.

 

[306024]

I've tried to find the rules to mongball but can't find that either

If that is how SWT diagrams work then they really are quite restrictive. Presumably to do with the Siemens maintenance contract. Over here on the GE it is usually possible to strength trains outside peak hours for special events as long as the additional cost can be justified. Getting the commercial intelligence in the first place to know there is potentially additional demand is more of an issue.

 

[Squaddie]

Overcrowding is becoming a problem even in Switzerland: on one train journey I made last week there was actually someone else in my carriage. Outrageous.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Also -apart from unit mileage clocked up (and having to be paid for if the quota is exceeded) - extra length trains have a surcharge imposed for station capacity to NR. In the case of an 8 vice 4 - this could equate to another £4 or so per station. Much more for main line stations.

Such are the structures of the privatised railway......

 

[Simon11]

TOCs are supposed to aim for 0% standing outside of weekday peak hours and for no-one having to stand for more than 20 minutes.

Looking at one ITT, it does not state that there should be 0% standing outside of weekday peak, only that it should be 0% outside the travelcard area.

Also, there is no mentioned of a 20 minute max standing, only mentioned from this station, which has a journey time of 30-35 minutes to central London.

Also worth considering this will be based on averages, so when there is a major event like football at Wembley, the impact will only increase the capacity by a small amount.

 

[Rich McLean]

I remember standing from Paddington, all the way to Exeter on a busy Friday night HST to Plymouth, which was just over 2 hours

 

[PhilipW]

A while back I read a piece saying that SWT were reducing the number of sets running during the day, not because the demand was not there but because it would mean they would have to pay less to Network Rail. The piece also stated that they were going to replace some Class 444 services with Class 450 units as they would have lower mileages and so cost SWT less to run. So one could therefore expect to see more single 5-car 444s or Class 450s running to Bournemouth.

Like most things one reads, I accept that this may not be true. Unfortunately I don't recall where I read it so cannot link to the article here. However it was not an article that I could immediately dismiss as "unbelievable".

If this is true, there would seem very little incentive for SWT to strengthen its off peak evening services even if the demand was there.

Although my initial post commented on the one particular 23:05 service out of Waterloo, I did also state that I have found other services can also be regularly overcrowded especially on Friday and Saturday evenings, though perhaps not to the extent of the 23:05 last night. This is therefore not a fluke "one off" problem, it is a growing problem across a number of services and one that should not be simply dismissed by say "it is difficult to program units at 23:00 at night".

 

[pemma]

Looking at one ITT, it does not state that there should be 0% standing outside of weekday peak, only that it should be 0% outside the travelcard area.

Also, there is no mentioned of a 20 minute max standing, only mentioned from this station, which has a journey time of 30-35 minutes to central London.

The DfT definition of an overcrowded train is in most circumstances:
1. An off-peak train where passengers have to stand
2. A peak train where the number of standing passengers exceeds 35%* of the number of seats.
3. A peak train where passengers stand for more than 20 minutes, unless they choose to stand where seats are available.

* Exceptions apply where the interior layout is arranged to accommodate a higher number of standing passengers e.g. London Overground.

 

[455driver]

A while back I read a piece saying that SWT were reducing the number of sets running during the day, not because the demand was not there but because it would mean they would have to pay less to Network Rail. The piece also stated that they were going to replace some Class 444 services with Class 450 units as they would have lower mileages and so cost SWT less to run. So one could therefore expect to see more single 5-car 444s or Class 450s running to Bournemouth.

Like most things one reads, I accept that this may not be true. Unfortunately I don't recall where I read it so cannot link to the article here. However it was not an article that I could immediately dismiss as "unbelievable".

If this is true, there would seem very little incentive for SWT to strengthen its off peak evening services even if the demand was there.

It is true as the 444s are basically used on long distance routes they were getting close to the mileage limits so some Poole stopping trains had 450s allocated to them instead.
The fact that the 444s actually do easier work than the 450/5s (for example) is lost on the accountants that only measure things in miles and any train running at continuous high speed is going to have an easier time of it compared to something which is starting and stopping every few minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is therefore not a fluke "one off" problem, it is a growing problem across a number of services and one that should not be simply dismissed by say it is "difficult to program" units at 23:00 at night.

So what do you propose then!
Instead of just sitting there saying "its wrong" come up with a viable/workable solution!

Things to bear in mind-
All the diagrams have to be agreed between the TOC, leasing/maintenance company and NR in advance?

Who is going to absorb the extra costs which will be incurred and which may or may not be covered by the extra revenue taken?

How do you propose to get the unit (which has been used to strengthen the train from A to B) back to A so it can continue on its diagram the next day and who is going to clean/tank the train as it has missed its slot and all the cleaners are contracted to clean a certain number of trains per night so if its in the wrong location you either pay extra to have the train cleaned (if its possible) at B or it doesnt get cleaned?
If you are going to use an VSTP and run an ECS path then who is going to pay for that path (they all have to be worked out and agreed) and who is going to actually drive the thing (no crews sat around doing nothing nowadays).

 

[PhilipW]

So what do you propose then!
Instead of just sitting there saying "its wrong" come up with a viable/workable solution!

Things to bear in mind-
All the diagrams have to be agreed between the TOC, leasing/maintenance company and NR in advance?

Who is going to absorb the extra costs which will be incurred and which may or may not be covered by the extra revenue taken?

How do you propose to get the unit (which has been used to strengthen the train from A to B) back to A so it can continue on its diagram the next day and who is going to clean/tank the train as it has missed its slot and all the cleaners are contracted to clean a certain number of trains per night so if its in the wrong location you either pay extra to have the train cleaned (if its possible) at B or it doesnt get cleaned?
If you are going to use an VSTP and run an ECS path then who is going to pay for that path (they all have to be worked out and agreed) and who is going to actually drive the thing (no crews sat around doing nothing nowadays).

I am just a rail user. So the honest answer to the above questions is "I don't know". That is the answer that any rail passenger would give.

If however (for example) there is a genuine need to strengthen the 22:05 and 23:05 from Waterloo every Friday and Saturday night, that's up to SWT to arrange. I think it perfectly valid that as a passenger I can express a view that I think certain services need strengthening. That is entirely reasonable. I am very sorry that the rail industry turns around and says that it can't be done. The idea that it is up to me to tell them how to do it, that's just ridiculous.