Group Bourdon Tool

[Beveridges]

The Boredom Dots should ialot more than 10 minutes of concentration at a time! The Boredom Test is too short.

 

[TDK]

The Boredom Dots can't be compared to driving a train. It's a little 10 minute test. Even in Maintenance Depot Driving, there is a lot more than 10 minutes of concentration at a time! The Boredom Test is too short.

Maybe they should make you see dots for 3 hours at a time then

 

[choochoochoo]

does anybody what is considered a good GBT score on the pen and paper version ? I find it easier than the computer version ?

first attempt with default settings:
1210 cells
1 omitted
0 incorrect

 

[Aviator88]

TDK,

I would say that the logical conclusion to be drawn from the points you are highlighting is that the test itself is not fit for purpose, if it is possible to improve your score with practice.

A TRUE test of 'natural ability' should encompass some feature that is proven to withstand a candidate's practice, i.e. during the research stage, there should be little to no fluctuation in results when drawn up against practice.

This type of test would be extremely difficult to produce, and part of me agrees with a previous poster that in some ways, due to the aids available, this test has evolved from being a concentration test to a 'how much are you prepared to research about the job' test.

 

[youngboy]

TDK,

I would say that the logical conclusion to be drawn from the points you are highlighting is that the test itself is not fit for purpose, if it is possible to improve your score with practice.

A TRUE test of 'natural ability' should encompass some feature that is proven to withstand a candidate's practice, i.e. during the research stage, there should be little to no fluctuation in results when drawn up against practice.

This type of test would be extremely difficult to produce, and part of me agrees with a previous poster that in some ways, due to the aids available, this test has evolved from being a concentration test to a 'how much are you prepared to research about the job' test.

I think that's why the test's are being changed shortly mate !!

 

[Beveridges]

I don't believe in "natural ability" people are only good at things due to practice. For example, no one goes and plays Ten Pin Bowling and is immediately an expert. The same can be said about anything.

Someone might be good at the Boredom Dots because they do a lot of word searches in their spare time. Does that make them any more suitable for the role ? Not really. But will word searches improve performance on the Boredom Dots over a long period of time? YES, it's a very similar task.

Someone who plays more Xbox/PC/Playstation/Megadrive games will be a lot better at the reactions test than if they hadn't. The games on these consoles require a similar skill to the one required in the reactions test.

 

[TDK]

I don't believe in "natural ability" people are only good at things due to practice. For example, no one goes and plays Ten Pin Bowling and is immediately an expert. The same can be said about anything.

Someone might be good at the Boredom Dots because they do a lot of word searches in their spare time. Does that make them any more suitable for the role ? Not really. But will word searches improve performance on the Boredom Dots over a long period of time? Certainly, it's a very similar task.

Steven Hendry got a break of 60 in snooker whilst standing on a box at his 3rd visit to the table so some people have a natural ability. In fact everyone has natural ability Bev and most are never discovered.

The reaction test is the one that tests natural ability I think.

In fact my natural ability is to hear music and break it down into sections. I can listen to a track and play bass guitar to it almost immediately.

 

[Daniel84]

I've sat the assessments twice and both times passed the required tests at the first time of asking with good scores, the GBT test can be practiced, which I did and improved the amount I was doing, but I was OK to start off with and if it was a level playing field I personally think I would have met the standard, this is in comparison to other people who have tried it first time around and had lots of errors, added to this the nerves and actual situation of the day are far different from sitting in front of the computer at home.

The reaction test again although can be practiced is a completely different animal at the assessment centre and if you haven't got it in that one then you just haven't got it.

The trainability tests where I was told my results were the top of the top is not available to practice as far as I know and is another where there is an element of natural ability, you can either work the pictures out quickly and accurately or you can't.

Mechanical reasoning comes down to either a pass or fail and does what it says on the tin, again you can improve your knowledge, but the questions asked in the assessment differ from most examples you will come across, so again you either have the mechanical comprehension or you don't, everyone I have ever spoken to after this test were convinced they'd failed, nobody has as far as I am aware.

Then there is the interview, which I am awaiting my results for, but looking back now I think I may have come short up short on, although I believe I have relevant experiences which demonstrate the competencies required, they will not match someone coming from the forces etc, unfortunately there is little that can be done about that.

On both of the occasions I sat the tests there were people who didn't get through and on my latest assessment the chap who didn't make it had not met the standards on the same tests he failed previously and was already on the railways, so it's not as easy as some portray, even with the practice material and prior knowledge.

I hope that the new tests will be more down to natural ability as I believe that will be an advantage to me. I'd obviously like to believe I have the required skills to become a driver, if the current tests accurately predict that and are fit for purpose is up to people in the industry to decide, which it now seems they don't believe.

 

[choochoochoo]

so what is a good score for the paper and pencil version ?

 

[TDK]

so what is a good score for the paper and pencil version ?

Yawn, Choochoo, it isn't the score it is all down to consistency and accuracy, some have passed completing 7 lines only but consistently 7 lines and no mistakes, some have failed completing 13, 13, 12, 12, 10 with mistakes and misses because they went too quickly. Too many people are obsessed with pass marks. It isn't set in stone it is marked on consistency & accuracy.

 

[choochoochoo]

Thanks for the info, will keep that in mind

 

[Red18]

I think TDK's advice is spot on.
Before I sat the test I read the various comments about this test on various forums and noted the following:

1: Understand what you will be expected to do.
2: Go at a steady / comfortable pace and do not rush.
3: Be consistent.

I followed these basic rules and passed ok.
When practicing I started by doing as many rows as I possibly could in the time and noted the errors. I was doing maybe 14 or 15 rows but the number differed each time. I then reduced the number of rows I completed each time and noted the results. Eventually I seemed to hit the magic speed (for me) which allowed me to complete exactly the same number of rows (important) with minimum errors.
For the actual test I made sure I completed exactly 11 rows on each page - no more, no less. If you finish a page early then it's worth a quick scan to check for errors. It also gives you chance to look away from the sheet briefly and to re-focus.

As TDK says, it's not the volume but the quality and consistency that is being tested here. That said I don't think 2 x perfect rows will cut it either
Good luck.

 

[jaarus]

Blast!

Found out mine is on paper - but when I try to print out the test sheets from the program I get an error message saying 'no default printer is selected' - but there doesnt appear to be anyway of setting a default printer within the program and my system settings clearly show that I do have a default printer


Looks like PC practice for paper based test for me then!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Switch it off..... and on again.


hahaha - fixed!

 

[muselnor]

The Group Bourdon tool was very helpful for me. Found out I passed my first assesment just reaction test and structured interview to go fingers crossed!

 

[at60]

The Group Bourdon tool was very helpful for me. Found out I passed my first assesment just reaction test and structured interview to go fingers crossed!

Is that for FLHH muselnor?

 

[atomic_playboy]

I am completely new here, hello all!!! go easy on me

just getting started in the process, looking at trainee drivers job,

for the group bourdon tool at assessments, are you tested on both GBT and SCAAT or just GBT?

or does it depend on the TOC?

thankyou for your help

mark

 

[Downtheline]

I am completely new here, hello all!!! go easy on me

just getting started in the process, looking at trainee drivers job,

for the group bourdon tool at assessments, are you tested on both GBT and SCAAT or just GBT?

or does it depend on the TOC?

thankyou for your help

mark

Hi, for FGW it was GB and on paper when I sat it, whether that is always the case with FGW I cannot say.

Good luck.

 

[jaarus]

Yes it all depends on your TOC.

Like the poster above, mine was also with FGW and was also GB on paper. (you can do print offs from the tool - paper feels very different to computer - so if unsure practice both)

 

[richie26188]

Do Northern tend to use paper or computer based?

 

[Daniel84]

Do Northern tend to use paper or computer based?

Paper, in my experience.

 

[Septus]

Just had a bash at this, first go.
Any good or what should I be aiming for?



Overall Statistics:
-------------------

Perception & Attention:

Targets Omitted ------------ None
Marked Incorrect ----------- 1


Speed:

Total Cells ---------------- 1109
Mean Cell Time ------------- 0.352
Median Cell Time ----------- 0.310

Completed Rows ------------- 42
Mean Row Time -------------- 8.764
Median Row Time ------------ 8.840


Vigilance:

Row Fluctuation ------------ 3.79

 

[Greaseball3220]

I regularly practice the online GB Test, and get about 55 rows, less than 10 missed and Zero incorrectly marked, went for an assessment where they did the paper version, flew through it with none incorrect and maybe a couple missed, got about halfway down on each section and this was the part of the assessment they failed me on, speed and number of completed lines being the 'reason'??? . ( There must have been smoke coming from the hands of the applicants doing it quicker! )

Practice by all means, but TOC's use these tests as a method of bullsh***ing people they've decided against taking on as they can't do it on grounds of ethnicity,gender,nationality etc anymore.

It's quite often the case there'll be 10/15 in a room and three or four already earmarked for being recruited despite others getting matching results.

 

[Beveridges]

The tests are a con. The OPC/CCL who run them want you to fail so that TOCs spend thousands of pounds more sending more applicants. Its a business and it has to make a profit.

 

[Daniel84]

The tests are a con. The OPC/CCL who run them want you to fail so that TOCs spend thousands of pounds more sending more applicants. Its a business and it has to make a profit.

I'm really not sure about that, the OPC/TOC didn't have any incentive to pass me...?

 

[ultra4]

It is a great helping tool indeed.
However it does not indicate what a descent score is, what to aim for.
What sort of caliber scores were you guys, who passed real assessment, achieving in the above program?

 

[Beveridges]

Just look at some of the failures... people have failed when they clearly should have passed.
Example: The above post by Greaseball3220 who failed the Boredom test on speed, yet his speed was far better than many people on here claim they have passed with.
Several Shunters/Guards have failed the Structured Interview on the question about "working alone"... only for them to go back to their current jobs, working alone.
It's becoming more & more obvious how much of a con these tests are.

 

[mickeyjenson!]

On the GBT paper test is there lines separating the different number of dots?

 

[DBE]

On the GBT paper test is there lines separating the different number of dots?

On the version I did, there was not. If I recall correctly, the formatting is similar to the printed sheets produced by the PC programme, but the dots are smaller.

 

[jstanton2013]

Group-Bourdon Result Statistics
Saved on 10/15/2013 at 10:12:48 PM
-------------------------------



Overall Statistics:
-------------------

Perception & Attention:

Targets Omitted ------------ 10
Marked Incorrect ----------- None


Speed:

Total Cells ---------------- 1044
Mean Cell Time ------------- 0.373
Median Cell Time ----------- 0.290

Completed Rows ------------- 40
Mean Row Time -------------- 9.312
Median Row Time ------------ 9.300


Vigilance:

Row Fluctuation ------------ 6.29



---------------------------------------------


only just joined as ive applied to be a driver in leeds, this was my first attempt 5 sheets at 2 minutes, is this any good? do i need to improve a little or a lot,

 

[DunfordBridge]

Group-Bourdon Result Statistics
Saved on 10/15/2013 at 10:12:48 PM
-------------------------------



Overall Statistics:
-------------------

Perception & Attention:

Targets Omitted ------------ 10
Marked Incorrect ----------- None


Speed:

Total Cells ---------------- 1044
Mean Cell Time ------------- 0.373
Median Cell Time ----------- 0.290

Completed Rows ------------- 40
Mean Row Time -------------- 9.312
Median Row Time ------------ 9.300


Vigilance:

Row Fluctuation ------------ 6.29



---------------------------------------------


only just joined as ive applied to be a driver in leeds, this was my first attempt 5 sheets at 2 minutes, is this any good? do i need to improve a little or a lot,

I honestly would not want to say whether this level of performance would put you in a good position to pass the test. When I passed my test for the conductor assessment, I will have been performing better than this. My pass as a conductor incidentally was good enough for me not to have been re-tested for a trainee driver position with Freightliner.

One thing you have got to bear in mind is that it is not just about speed but about accuracy. I personally would strive to achieve an accuracy of 5 omissions or less and not stray too far outside of my comfort zone for speed.

I notice that this is your first attempt and I am sure you will improve. I also notice that you did this at the back end of the day. A performance after a full day's work is never going to be as good as one on a Sunday morning, say.

I would also not get too preoccupied with this test as there is also the TEA-Occ and WAFV tests to undergo as far as attention and vigilance are concerned. Far better to be involved in a career which makes active demands in these areas.

I was reading this morning in the RSSB T948 summary document that the Group Bourdon was considered for replacement pending a suitable replacement test. Such concerns are probably still ongoing so watch this space! one of the concerns is test security due to versions of the GB test being available on the internet.