Groupsave and XC

[monkey]

It will be a good day for passengers and taxpayers (in the long run) on the day when it all comes to an end for Arriva on the XC franchise. That day must not be far off, unless they have a really good deal with the DfT that sees taxpayers footing the bill for XC's incomptence...

...isn't arriva now owned by db? which seems to be adored here lol! arriva does have bad rep I guess, but I guess the thing is to hope that db improves things as arriva is integrated within db in the uk...

 

[Ferret]

Monkey/Yorkie - can I also just point out that Groupsave wasn't valid on XC even when Virgin was in charge?! It may be a tad wrong to be laying this particular argument at Arriva's door...

 

[monkey]

^^yeah I was just talking generally about their bad rep. I do think xc has got worse under arriva though, for example how filthy their trains are ALL the time now... even when originating somehwere like newcastle - they seem to have all but given up on cleaning, but alas I digress...:P

 

[talltim]

So tickets sold by one arm of a company can't be used on trains of another arm of the same company?:roll:

 

[monkey]

^^but yet can be used by a completely unrelated company (fgw). yes it seems...

(although to be fair arriva has only been recently acquired so give them break... lol)

 

[Ferret]

So tickets sold by one arm of a company can't be used on trains of another arm of the same company?:roll:

In the case of Chiltern, yes! Strange isn't it?! And even more justification for my opinion that if XC are accepting Chiltern/WSMR tickets due to engineering works then this should include Groupsave.

 

[mumrar]

^^yeah I was just talking generally about their bad rep. I do think xc has got worse under arriva though, for example how filthy their trains are ALL the time now... even when originating somehwere like newcastle - they seem to have all but given up on cleaning, but alas I digress...:P

That maybe the case for the ex-Virgin side of XC, but it isn't for the ex-Central side. The trains are better performing and timekeeping is much higher, plus they've had 170 crews learn some sensible diversion routes, although 3 key ones are still missing: New St-Burton via Lichfield, Gloucester-Newport via the Severn tunnel and Trent Jcn-Leicester (signed by Leicester only). There are some faults now coming as result of a long term build up of smaller issues, such as much higher unavailability of toilets in the past year. But largely I think XC has now become a contradiction for enthusiasts - how can they hate Arriva when it's now owned by DB? It's like telling a Daily Mail reader that illegal immigtants eat paedophiles - how would their brains cope?

 

[monkey]

But largely I think XC has now become a contradiction for enthusiasts - how can they hate Arriva when it's now owned by DB? It's like telling a Daily Mail reader that illegal immigtants eat paedophiles - how would their brains cope?

...I'm not against arriva per se, if they did good job I'd give credit where its due, andI guess I can't comment much on the ex-central xc having only used it once (was pleasant enough) but the ex-virgin side is what most probs will be exposed to as it covers more distance and that has become unforgiveably poor, it was bad enough having voyagers as they were, but least they were vaguely clean, now they just have just given up. and not just that, its now more expensive to travel with them too, so for basically the majority of the country xc means paying far too much to travel on filthy (and I mean disgustingly filthy), overcrowded train...

 

[yorkie]

Monkey/Yorkie - can I also just point out that Groupsave wasn't valid on XC even when Virgin was in charge?! It may be a tad wrong to be laying this particular argument at Arriva's door...

I'm not really blaming Arriva for the decision, but it's the way they go about it that stinks. If they had anything about them, they'd petition SWT to make the ticket 'Not XC' and if they can't/won't do it, then get ATOC to do it.

In the mean time, they should just sign up and accept the revenue, as to charge passengers is in contravention of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and they are asking their guards to act in an incorrect and immoral manner (I am sure there will be many who don't participate - like when GC had that peak supplement and it got so ridiculous that I heard that only one guard actually charged it!) and in a way that puts people off future rail journeys.

I've never been to Germany and have no idea how good DB are, but they have a huge task on to completely change the management and behaviour of XC. I'll reserve judgement on DB until at least a years' time.

I recall from many journeys up & down the country, from Penzance to Glasgow/Dundee in 2008 (to sample the Valentas), many of the staff (especially catering) seemed very unhappy at Arriva and there were talks of strikes. This was when they were starting to withdraw buffets. I fully supported the views of the staff toward this truly awful company. I hope that the majority XC staff continue to side with genuine customers rather than the abysmal management that they suffer from, and do not charge passengers in contravention of the NCoC.

I hope DB can completely change the company, but time will tell.

 

[monkey]

don't db own chiltern and wsmr? so its not like they're stranger to the country, thats why I was pointing out that they have good rep here. I don't think the removing of buffets/shops was xc's fault as they had provide more seats without much funding, so it was the natural choice. but everything else about xc since, has been reflected in poor passenger experience...

 

[yorkie]

don't db own chiltern and wsmr? so its not like they're stranger to the country, thats why I was pointing out that they have good rep here. I don't think the removing of buffets/shops was xc's fault as they had provide more seats without much funding, so it was the natural choice. but everything else about xc since, has been reflected in poor passenger experience...

But they didn't take over that long ago. Have they changed the XC management team? Have they had time to analyse what XC are doing wrong? Are the top management of DB even aware of the sort of issues that get discussed on here? It could take a long time to sort out the mess.

 

[dan_atki]

I don't think the removing of buffets/shops was xc's fault as they had provide more seats without much funding, so it was the natural choice.

Removal of the shop on board Voyagers was a franchise agreement which they tried getting out of... but Virgin wouldn't allow them to.

As another issue with ticketing restrictions being shown on the CIS - one that SWT seem to be using to full extent, '(Super) Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service' is a bit of a generalisation I think is excessive and incorrect. It makes the service sound peak when we all know it's not the train that is peak but the restriction code on the ticket. Another gripe I have is shading showing which services are 'peak' and 'off peak' in timetables - something EMT and FCC both do.

I would suspect that the reason 'GroupSave tickets are not valid on this train' appears is at the request of CrossCountry to avoid confrontation on the train.

With regards to routeing issues, it is very easy to set different routes for the GS3 and GS4 fares - do what EMT do and have them as separate fares rather than a discount option on CDRs. I believe these are also printed on just one ticket, making it easier for passengers to remember that they must all travel together! Win-win situation.

 

[Ferret]

Yorkie, you say it's in contravention of the CoC, but yet the CoC is not the whole Contract. I really think you should face facts and accept that Groupsave is not valid on XC. You'll recall that I used to agree with you on this, but I've found the evidence to the contrary to be overwhelming.

 

[monkey]

But they didn't take over that long ago. Have they changed the XC management team? Have they had time to analyse what XC are doing wrong? Are the top management of DB even aware of the sort of issues that get discussed on here? It could take a long time to sort out the mess.

...I'd say db have been heavily involved with chiltern and wsmr for long enough period now to have an effect, to get an idea of what they're like as a uk rail operator. and is why I thought everyone here adores them here because of their stellar job so far, no?

in terms of their involvement with xc, I've already said...

(although to be fair arriva has only been recently acquired so give them break... lol)

so I'm wasn't expecting any immediate changes. I'm guessing though they'll reorganise arriva's uk rail assets under the same unit as db's other uk rail interests (presumebly db regio), keeping arriva as a bus only operation, and moving arrivas foreign rail interests to the respective db subsidiary in that country. until all that is done it won't be clear if db have any plans to change the way xc is operated or not... and if so what they have in store...

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie, you say it's in contravention of the CoC, but yet the CoC is not the whole Contract. I really think you should face facts and accept that Groupsave is not valid on XC. You recall that I used to agree with you on this, but -kve found the evidence to the contrary to be overwhelming.

What part of "will be shown on the ticket" is difficult to understand?

In the relevant place where the restriction is shown it says "Any Permitted" (or similar).

Simple.

 

[Ferret]

What part of "will be shown on the ticket" is difficult to understand?

In the relevant place where the restriction is shown it says "Any Permitted" (or similar).

Simple.

What part of condition 1 don't you understand? What part of the literature on Groupsave is hard to understand? What part of the basic laws of Contract are hard to understand?! Like I say, the evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

 

[yorkie]

Condition 1 is a general introduction really. If you are arguing that this is a TOC-restricted/specific ticket, then that comes under Condition 10. If you say that Condition 10 can be completely disregarded then you may as well disregard every condition and say "well condition 1 says this is my company's property and so I'm taking this off you"!

The fact is, Condition 10 deals with TOC restrictions. Is there a TOC restriction or isn't there? If there is, see condition 10 for details on how that is dealt with. If there isn't then XC must accept it!

 

[southerner2174]

Personally as someone who has to deal with 'FCC ONLY' tickets being used on other services on a daily basis, I dont think that anyone who buys a ticket actually notices the route restriction they might be buying for and simply opts for the cheapest ticket they can see. Even when explaining to such passenger their ticket is not valid they either don't understand or pretend to be ignorant so it comes to the stage that its a waste of time trying to sell them a new ticket, so i just take the satisfaction that they could have bought a cheaper ticket for the journey that they are making and if they had actually boarded the correct service they would have reached their destination 20-30 minutes faster.

 

[Ferret]

I don't think we'll ever agree on this one Yorkie! Hey ho!

Here's why I'm convinced it's not valid though. If you buy a ticket, you enter into a contract with the train companies whose services you are entitled to use. We know from the relevant literature that XC are not part of the Groupsave scheme. Therefore, if you've bought a Groupsave ticket, you actually don't have any form of contract with XC at all. That's the bottom line in all of this - it's that simple. I can't see what more can be said!

 

[yorkie]

We know from the relevant literature that XC are not part of the Groupsave scheme.

Yes, but many people do not.

Therefore, if you've bought a Groupsave ticket, you actually don't have any form of contract with XC at all.

Your contract is with 'the TOCs' and the NCoC states that is any TOC that operates along a permitted route for your ticket (in accordance with the RG) unless there is a TOC restriction shown on the ticket (any such restriction appears under Route).

southerner2174 - you may be right but if it says FCC Only it is enforceable IMO. Yes, some people still won't understand it, but at least they're given a chance, with the restriction clearly printed on the ticket! You either work for Southern or EC! Your name suggests the former

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Introduction....

....The Train Companies may not give you less extensive rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so....

....1 Your contract....

....Details of how to get copies of the relevant Train Company’s notices and other publications relevant to your journey will be available when you buy a ticket....

....If a Train Company’s special conditions apply to the use of a ticket, the seller will make these clear to you....

Now, I know Condition 10 says blah, blah, blah, but using another railway example...

Network Railcards.

A ticket from Potters Bar to Brighton (rte +Any Permitted) is valid on Gatwick Express services from Victoria to Gatwick Airport. A Network Railcard discounted ticket is not valid on Gatwick Express services, but where on a Network Railcard discounted Potters Bar to Brighton (rte +Any Permitted) ticket does it say I cannot use Gatwick Express services?

It doesn't.

It does however say it in the literature for the Network Railcard, so the restriction is allowed, the clerk should tell the passenger about it when selling the ticket. The NCoC allows this.

So provided the literature says not valid on XC and the clerk says not valid on XC, it is NOT valid on XC, regardless what the tickets says.

Also, perhaps someone can point me in the direction of where it says TOC restrictions are only printed under route and only time restrictions are printed under validity? I seem to have missed it and it'd be nice to know where it is for future reference.

 

[Ferret]

Yes, but many people do not.

Your contract is with 'the TOCs' and the NCoC states that is any TOC that operates along a permitted route for your ticket (in accordance with the RG) unless there is a TOC restriction shown on the ticket (any such restriction appears under Route).

Yorkie, demonstrate to us all how XC enter into a contract with a Groupsave ticket holder. You should show how there is an offer, acceptance of that offer and consideration moving between the two parties. That is how you identify a contract. I'm willing to bet you'll be unable to do so Again, a Groupsave ticketholder has no contract with XC and no right to use their services therefore.

 

[yorkie]

By entering into the agreement with ATOC to accept 'Any Permitted' (and equivalent) tickets, the company agrees to accept such tickets. I don't have details of what the TOCs sign up to, but I know they sign up to something and if they don't, they can't get any ORCATS revenue.

By your argument, XC do not enter into an agreement you accept a Micklefield-York season, do they? And XC do not enter into an agreement to accept a Micklefield-Leeds SDR, do they? So, do you deny that such a combination is valid on XC services? If you deny it, give your reasons. If you accept it, show how there is an offer, acceptance of that offer and consideration moving between the two parties (once you have done this, I'll do the same for GroupSave )

Perhaps XC should not accept any ORCATS revenue and just do their own tickets, then we'll see how long they survive?

 

[Ferret]

XC haven't signed up to accept Groupsave tickets!!! XC have however signed up to accept the combination of tickets you describe, so there is offer and acceptance there - Lord alone knows what consideration there is as I/you/we have no idea how ORCATS would distribute revenue there.

 

[clagmonster]

In both the Groupsave case, and the case of using a Network Railcard on GatEx services, there is clearly a conflict between condition 10, which states that the restriction must be shown on the ticket and the ticket restrictions, which apparately state that the ticket is not valid on Cross Country (or is restricted to certain operators only, which I suspect is actually the case). Until both are resolved, ie the restrictions are made clear at all points of sale and the operator restrictions are printed on the ticket, this will continue to be a messy issue.

Now, from what Ferret has written, I assume that Cross Country guards on the Southern have been withdrawing groupsave tickets and completing TIRs, which have then resulted in SWT being billed, presumably for not advising of the operator restrictions at point of sale. To counter this, SWT have put up posters advising of the restrictions which are in direct sight of the passenger at the ticket window, which I believe satisfies condition 1 (assuming that blind people are advised accordingley).

However, the tickets still do not have the operator restriction printed on them ('see restrictions' merely states that there is a restriction of some form, it is not the restriction), so surely Cross Country could carry out the same procedure against SWT as the tickets aren't printed in accordance with the NRCoC. Either that, or they are in fact valid on the Cross Country service to start with.

Now I have a question. If the groupsave tickets are not valid on Cross Country, that is presumably because Cross Country are not one of the companies promoting the groupsave offer. If so, Northern fall into the same category. Then please explain how you would complete the journey on a Barton on Humber-Lincoln groupsave ticket, stating the operator of each service you use and why your ticket is valid on each train.

 

[dan_atki]

(assuming that blind people are advised accordingley).

Knowing SWT, the fact it is now appearing on the CIS screens at stations surely means before long Phil Sayer will be announcing that GroupSave is not valid on CrossCountry, similarly like he does at Victoria stating that if you're travelling beyond Gatwick on a GatEx then you must have a ticket before boarding!

[/aside]

 

[Ferret]

I just looked up Brum-Newcastle in Avantix. That offers a Groupsave option too! Oh dear, gremlins in the system!

Dan - it already is being announced by Phil Sayer!!!!!

 

[dan_atki]

Dan - it already is being announced by Phil Sayer!!!!!

Like I said - doesn't surprise me!

 

[222007]

If under Route they said "Not XC" or "Chiltern Only" then XC would be acting correctly.

We have put this suggestion forward to the relevant people in the company. Also group save tickets were brilliant to get football/rugby fans on your side by 'saving them money' always went down well now we cant sell them

 

[penaltyfines]

Here's an interesting one.

There are certain services that GroupSave tickets are not valid on:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/groupsave_calendar.html

What makes this part of the contract... it's not stated on the front of the ticket?