GroupSave changes?

[sarahj]

great. Group save 4 was a great way to deal with the 'party' people. Buy all together and save 50%. And it was possible to do groups of more than 4. Saved time, workings out and suddenly you were great as they all saved 50%. I mean a third off is fine, not to be sniffed, but half price was better. With the increase in kids for a quid to kids for two quid with no warning, does not send out the best message.

Of couse those deciding this are not on the front line, just like many memos that come down from HQ.
eg:
Memo 1 about dealing with certain passengers on a train.
Staff member follows memo, gets assulted
Memo 2 Dealing with difficult situations.
Of course there was no link between memo 1 and 2 bar the one week difference.:roll:
Mini rant over

 

[Goatboy]

Never mind, frankly the entire concept that a couple had to pay the same to travel as a group of 4 people was ridiculous anyway.

 

[lemonic]

Never mind, frankly the entire concept that a couple had to pay the same to travel as a group of 4 people was ridiculous anyway.

I wouldn't say it was ridiculous. The primary competition with the train is the car and it costs the same for 2 people to travel in a car as it does for 4.

However, I can see why the change will be introduced, as I suspect that it will lead to an increase in revenue.

 

[bnm]

Never mind, frankly the entire concept that a couple had to pay the same to travel as a group of 4 people was ridiculous anyway.

That group of four may now well decide that the car represents better value.

ATOC. There's your foot. Here's a gun.

 

[island]

great. Group save 4 was a great way to deal with the 'party' people. Buy all together and save 50%. And it was possible to do groups of more than 4. Saved time, workings out and suddenly you were great as they all saved 50%. I mean a third off is fine, not to be sniffed, but half price was better.

Eh? Surely you only saved 50% if you had a full group of 4. With 5 passengers, it would be a group of 4 and one full price so saving 40%, with 6 you would do two groups of 3 saving 34% (cheaper than a group of four and two full price which only saves 33.33%), and so on.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....I find that hard to believe if a retail brief has to been sent out to staff....

Not all staff have received it.

 

[sarahj]

Eh? Surely you only saved 50% if you had a full group of 4. With 5 passengers, it would be a group of 4 and one full price so saving 40%, with 6 you would do two groups of 3 saving 34% (cheaper than a group of four and two full price which only saves 33.33%), and so on.

You would think that

Ask me again towards the end of may.

 

[Muzer]

If you're travelling with other people who don't have a railcard, Groupsave may well still work out to be the cheapest option overall.

Given most people I travel with are under 25 or travel mostly in the Network Area, if I were feeling mean I'd probably keep the flexibility myself of being able to travel separate to the group and blame them for not having a railcard

 

[cav1975]

That group of four may now well decide that the car represents better value.

Have to agree Groupsave 4 was a real competitor for car travel - don't the railways want to get people out of cars anymore?

 

[RJ]

It has to be said that it's a clever bit of marketing - it may not have crossed the minds of many people travelling in groups of 6 for example that they could get two lots of Groupsave 3 to get a discount. Having a stated group size of up to 9 is a good way of opening up awareness to people.

 

[johnnycache]

Yes there are changes, and no the '4 for 2' is not retained.. Nearly as suggested in the info in the second post of this thread, rather than up to 5 it's any size of party between 3 and 9 adults now gets 34% off.

this means that any party 3 and above gets 34% as multiple tickets can be bought to add up to any size of group
best to buy 3x3 instead of 1x9 increase the group wants to split up

 

[tractakid]

Due to the upcoming changes to Groupsave, tickets for my family's trip to Gatwick Airport in September needed to be booked now. Tickets needed were Groupsave 4 Off Peak Return tickets from Milton Keynes Central to Gatwick Airport route Kensington Olympia. Intended outward itinerary leaves MKC at 0701 changing at Clapham Junction.

The ticket clerk at Milton Keynes Central seemed to believe that Groupsave was not valid before 9:30am, yet all he could show me was a sentence on the Southern website saying that Off Peak Day Returns are generally valid after 0930.

My evidence to the contrary (which I believe is conclusive)
1) There is no stated Groupsave time restriction in the terms and conditions.
2) Groupsave can be used on Off Peak Return tickets.
3) The Southern booking engine will happily issue Groupsave tickets for before 0930 on an equivalent but earlier weekday.

Thankfully the tickets were issued, however with the following written on the back "Cus insisted on this ticket as nothing writing to show GS4 not valid prior to 9.30 am" (continuing on the second ticket) "cus insisted I issue this ticket on 7.01 service informed him of restrictions" Final two tickets signed and stamped.

By "sold for the 7.01" I assume he means the itinerary he printed and provided.

Part of the conversation included "well you can argue that with the guard then"

Me and my father (who paid for the tickets) must have been standing at the counter for about 10-15 minutes in total. A large number of these were spent waiting while the clerk was using his computer. (after which the Southern website appeared)

All this to buy a straightforward through ticket which is unquestionably valid! The only restriction on the ticket (8A) is that you don't break your journey on the outward portion.

Any advice on the best way to prepare for deal with any conceivable hassle when traveling on the day? Not that there should be any...

 

[CyrusWuff]

Due to the upcoming changes to Groupsave, tickets for my family's trip to Gatwick Airport in September needed to be booked now. Tickets needed were Groupsave 4 Off Peak Return tickets from Milton Keynes Central to Gatwick Airport route Kensington Olympia. Intended outward itinerary leaves MKC at 0701 changing at Clapham Junction.

The ticket clerk at Milton Keynes Central seemed to believe that Groupsave was not valid before 9:30am, yet all he could show me was a sentence on the Southern website saying that Off Peak Day Returns are generally valid after 0930.

Any advice on the best way to prepare for deal with any conceivable hassle when traveling on the day? Not that there should be any...

The clerk was correct. Where no time restriction applies to the ticket, GroupSave is not available before 0930 Mondays to Fridays (excluding public holidays).

A quick bit of Googling finds this page on the Chiltern website, where this restriction is mentioned (albeit with bad grammar and punctuation) in Condition 6:

Travel time restrictions apply which are the same as the normal ticket restrictions being discounted except that where no time restriction normally applies GroupSave is not valid before 0930 on Mondays to Fridays. No additional restrictions apply at weekends.

The relevant page on the National Rail site just says that "There may be restrictions on when you can travel. Please ask for more details."

Curiously, Southern's WebTIS site is quite happy to offer GroupSave on the 0701; Chiltern's will offer GroupSave, but won't sell a "via Kensington Olympia" ticket for some reason; and Trainline (correctly) won't offer GroupSave on departures before the 1013 from Milton Keynes.

 

[tractakid]

What does something on the Chiltern website have to do with travelling with on Southern trains using Southern priced tickets?

 

[CyrusWuff]

What does something on the Chiltern website have to do with travelling with on Southern trains using Southern priced tickets?

Apart from EMT and ScotRail, the Terms and Conditions for GroupSave are the same for all participating TOCs, but Chiltern are the only one to explicitly mention the 0930 restriction. (Mostly, I suspect, because Chiltern are the only participating TOC with no Northbound morning peak restrictions from London AFAIK).

Other TOC websites generally either state "Travel time and date restrictions apply" (or similar) in line with the National Rail GroupSave page, or follow Southern's line and make ambiguous statements about Off-Peak tickets "generally" being valid after 0930.

 

[tractakid]

Apart from EMT and ScotRail, the Terms and Conditions for GroupSave are the same for all participating TOCs

This quite simply doesn't appear to be true.

 

[island]

This is an interesting one.

To me, the rule about GroupSave not being valid before 0930 when no time restrictions apply is intended to refer to the situation where Anytime tickets are sold with GroupSave due to no off-peak ticket existing for the flow. It's not mentioned on NRE (only a woolly "restrictions may apply; please ask for details". I do think you may have trouble if inspected.

 

[bb21]

This is an interesting one.

To me, the rule about GroupSave not being valid before 0930 when no time restrictions apply is intended to refer to the situation where Anytime tickets are sold with GroupSave due to no off-peak ticket existing for the flow. It's not mentioned on NRE (only a woolly "restrictions may apply; please ask for details". I do think you may have trouble if inspected.

But the SVR he bought has no time restriction at all, so surely then the 0930 blank restrictions apply.

It's a discount-specific restriction, which can overwrite individual ticket restrictions in the same manner as a Railcard time restriction.

 

[IanD]

For Southern their website states under the T&Cs:

GroupSave is valid on Off-Peak Returns for return within one calendar month, where available

So, reading that literally (is there any other way?) according to Southern if an off peak return is valid on a service then so is Groupsave. They are Southern only tickets* so they can put whatever interpretation on the Groupsave offer that they want.

Just the same as FGW restricting use on their services if they think people might actually want to use the trains to get to eg football matches or the Reading Festival.

Edit
===

* I mean these particular tickets rather than Groupsave in general. But now I think about it in theory the OP could try a LM service to Watford Junction, LO to Willesden Junction, LO to Clapham Junction then Southern to Gatwick.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It also says "travel time and date restrictions apply".....

 

[Pumbaa]

But the SVR he bought has no time restriction at all, so surely then the 0930 blank restrictions apply.

It's a discount-specific restriction, which can overwrite individual ticket restrictions in the same manner as a Railcard time restriction.

I agree with this interpretation. The clerk, admittedly without using the best explanation, was correct in their refusal to issue.

Admittedly the chances of you getting checked on this service are very slim. Full and standing by Berkhamsted in my experience.

 

[tractakid]

If the restriction isn't stated on the National Rail site, the Southern site, or even the London Midland site, and the Southern website offers itineraries, I cannot see how this would be enforceable. I think I will be making screenshots and printoffs of the websites in their current state as evidence.

 

[island]

I agree with this interpretation. The clerk, admittedly without using the best explanation, was correct in their refusal to issue.

Admittedly the chances of you getting checked on this service are very slim. Full and standing by Berkhamsted in my experience.

The ticket barriers at MKC will be the challenge.

 

[IanD]

It also says "travel time and date restrictions apply".....

But does not state what they are. Instead it goes on to list more restrictions not related to time and date, until the last one which is my above link to NRE showing when FGW don't offer GroupSave.

Southern, LM, RSH etc... all sell GroupSave tickets for 0505, 0701, 0813, 0913 etc... service from Milton Keynes to Gatwick via Kensngton Olympia if not returning on the same day.

 

[CyrusWuff]

If the restriction isn't stated on the National Rail site, the Southern site, or even the London Midland site, and the Southern website offers itineraries, I cannot see how this would be enforceable. I think I will be making screenshots and printoffs of the websites in their current state as evidence.

As I already pointed out, the relevant page on the National Rail site states: "There may be restrictions on when you can travel. Please ask for more details". You have been advised by the clerk who sold the tickets, and informally by at least one member of staff on here, that GroupSave is not valid before 09:30 Mondays to Fridays (excluding public holidays) where no other time restriction applies to the ticket.

I can't check KnowledgeBase right now as I'm not at work, but the GroupSave page in the last version of The Manual states: "If no morning restriction applies to the undiscounted ticket, travel is permitted at or after 0930 (0915 from Bedford) on weekdays and at any time weekends and public holidays." To the best of my knowledge, this has been consistent since GroupSave was first introduced.

Had you been able to book the tickets through the Southern website, you'd be in with a better chance as you'd have a printed itinerary, though I'd still expect the tickets to be withdrawn as a Ticketing Irregularity.

 

[tractakid]

I would have bought the tickets from the Southern website, but they won't be available before the price goes up. I have a printed itinerary from MKC ticket office and a screenshot of the SN website showing validity on the 0701 as close to the date as possible. I will also try to get a screenshot of the actual day with the new price.

 

[Haywain]

I would have bought the tickets from the Southern website, but they won't be available before the price goes up. I have a printed itinerary from MKC ticket office and a screenshot of the SN website showing validity on the 0701 as close to the date as possible. I will also try to get a screenshot of the actual day with the new price.

None of which should be of significant help given that the clerk advised you of the restriction and went out of his way to make it clear that he has done so. I don't see that any amount of screenshots to do not clearly contradict that can be seen as a defence against using invalid tickets. I have seen it argued a number of times on this forum that you should be advised of restrictions at the point of sale - you have been and don't like it, but that doesn't make it wrong.

 

[IanD]

None of which should be of significant help given that the clerk advised you of the restriction and went out of his way to make it clear that he has done so. I don't see that any amount of screenshots to do not clearly contradict that can be seen as a defence against using invalid tickets. I have seen it argued a number of times on this forum that you should be advised of restrictions at the point of sale - you have been and don't like it, but that doesn't make it wrong.

What about the 'Print out a valid itenerary from a ticket retailing website and they'll have to accept any ticket you present' advice that is often handed out on here?

Personally, I would have just bought the tickets and not mentioned which service I was intending on using then the clerk would not have scribbled all over the back of them. I find that ticket office staff often get their backs up if you imply they don't know what they're talking about (particulalrly if it turns out you're right).

If it is an error in the website interpretation of the offer then drawing attention to it like this may well get it corrected by the time you're in a position to do some screen prints for the date you need.

 

[RJ]

What about the 'Print out a valid itenerary from a ticket retailing website and they'll have to accept any ticket you present' advice that is often handed out on here?

I did that the other week - the TOC staff ignored the printouts from their own company's website and the National Rail Enquires Journey Planner, as did the BTP when they arrived. Advice is given with the best intentions, but you have to be prepared to deal with the worst case scenario.

 

[embers25]

I did that the other week - the TOC staff ignored the printouts from their own company's website and the National Rail Enquires Journey Planner, as did the BTP when they arrived. Advice is given with the best intentions, but you have to be prepared to deal with the worst case scenario.

I assume you eventually received an apology as usual?