GTR 2R00 - Staff train; why not in passenger service?

[jon0844]

Many years ago a staff train to King's Cross was put into passenger service. Later this was split into a couple of services, with a new train running from WGC at 0400 today (and another via Hertford).

However, for ages there has been a train north in the morning running as a staff train. 2R00. This is not in public service and never features on any displays. It's not even routinely dispatched by platform staff. It's like a ghost train!

It leaves King's Cross at 0412 and arrives at Letchworth at 0507. It makes many stops along the way, although sometimes it will just roll through without stopping when there's nobody having requested a pick up or drop off. It has to keep to a timetable though, so running in service would have minimal impact given it would never have long dwell times at that time of the day.

The obvious question is why hasn't it ever been considered for running in public service? It would be a blessing for shift workers who currently have to wait some time for the first northbound service from KGX (and suffer badly if and when this is delayed or cancelled).

Is it simply that it would need someone to shut it down at Letchworth for it to run empty to Stevenage? If that's the case, it's not that difficult to arrange is it?

 

[Sebastian O]

How do you know it’s a staff train? Is it not just an ECS move?

GTR is a management contract so it’s paid to run a timetabled service that’s agreed with the DfT. If it was a franchise and they thought they could make money out of it, they probably would run it.

Seeing as it wouldn’t earn them anymore money as they don’t take any money from the fare box, there’s no incentive. Just a flat fee for the specified service.

 

[jon0844]

It is definitely a staff train (it's also a 2xxx headcode).

 

[Hadders]

I’ve often wondered this too. Seems like a no brainier to run it in passenger service.

 

[Ianno87]

I’ve often wondered this too. Seems like a no brainier to run it in passenger service.

Wpuld it mean having to unlock/open up/staff stations earlier to enable it to be used by passengers?

 

[Hadders]

I don’t think so as by the time it gets to places like Potters Bar London bound trains are already operating.

 

[bramling]

How do you know it’s a staff train? Is it not just an ECS move?

GTR is a management contract so it’s paid to run a timetabled service that’s agreed with the DfT. If it was a franchise and they thought they could make money out of it, they probably would run it.

Seeing as it wouldn’t earn them anymore money as they don’t take any money from the fare box, there’s no incentive. Just a flat fee for the specified service.

The only issues I can readily think of are that King’s Cross doesn’t open until a bit later, and of course that if there were engineering works then it would mean the hassle of running replacement services for only a handful of people. I can’t see it being that useful for shift workers as it’s a little early for those finishing a night shift in London, and doesn’t serve that many destinations going north.

In WAGN days it was possible for anyone to use the staff trains providing they asked nicely and didn’t cause any hassle. Presumably things are a little more formal now.

 

[Hadders]

It would be quite easy to introduce an all night service on GN.

The last train is 0136, make the staff train at 0425 a public one which means only a couple of additional trains are required around 0230 and 0330 and hey presto there’s a 24 hour service.

 

[Table 52]

It would be quite easy to introduce an all night service on GN.

The last train is 0136, make the staff train at 0425 a public one which means only a couple of additional trains are required around 0230 and 0330 and hey presto there’s a 24 hour service.

...and cancel all engineering possessions.

 

[jon0844]

...and cancel all engineering possessions.

No need to do that. Buses can substitute trains when that's required.

But that will no doubt be a factor in deciding NOT to run 24/7 trains, although with the current GTR service levels there ARE lots of buses running throughout the night to move people as last trains are cancelled.. so it could be done. It's just a matter of cost and planning.

 

[Table 52]

No need to do that. Buses can substitute trains when that's required.

But that will no doubt be a factor in deciding NOT to run 24/7 trains, although with the current GTR service levels there ARE lots of buses running throughout the night to move people as last trains are cancelled.. so it could be done. It's just a matter of cost and planning.

I also very much doubt the passenger numbers would justify the all night train/bus service, unless somebody decides to build "Biggleswade International Airport" fairly near the line.

 

[Hadders]

AN all night service runs between Brighton and Bedford. I see no reason why the same couldn't happen between Brighton and Cambridge.

As for engineering work much of the route north of the Thames is 4 track. Diversions could also take place via Hertford. Set down only north of London could also be used to avoid the need to run replacement buses to intermediate stations.

 

[Table 52]

AN all night service runs between Brighton and Bedford. I see no reason why the same couldn't happen between Brighton and Cambridge.

Luton airport and Gatwick airport justify the 24 hour service. Cambridge doesn't.

As for engineering work much of the route north of the Thames is 4 track. Diversions could also take place via Hertford. Set down only north of London could also be used to avoid the need to run replacement buses to intermediate stations.

If you're diverting via Hertford some nights and via Welwyn on others, all your trains would have to run fast from Ally Pally to Stevenage. Hitchin, Hornsey and Harringay only have platforms on the slow lines. It's then two tracks north of Hitchin. Which means your 24 hour service is now Finsbury Park, Alexandra Palace and Stevenage only.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I used to use it all of the time to get to Hitchin and Letchworth. It was 04:15 then 04:14 until the timetable change and went fast to New Barnet, then Hatfield, Welwyn Garden, Welwyn North, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin and rolling down to Letchworth Reception.

New Barnet is where one of the Hitchin drivers lives and as the train is run for staff benefit I believe it stopped there so that if he was on earlies he would be picked up; Hatfield was mainly for VTEC and GN drivers going home off nights; Welwyn / Knebworth / Stevenage is chiefly for picking up staff to Hitchin depot and then a few drivers were booked PASS Hitchin > Letchworth Yard on the train.

Does that make sense?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Luton airport and Gatwick airport justify the 24 hour service. Cambridge doesn't.

Luton airport doesn't operate much, if anything, between 2359 and 0600 - you could easily get away with a south WCML style service (i.e. almost 24 hour[1] but a fairly long gap).

[1] There is one set that doesn't go to "bed" - the 0134 service from Euston northbound goes back south as the 03something from MKC.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Luton airport doesn't operate much, if anything, between 2359 and 0600 -

[1] .

So your flight arrives a little late and by the time you go through passport control and collect your bags it's gone 01:00, then bus to Parkway 01:30/02:00 ish. First scheduled flights (apart from some charters that do run between those hours) at 06:00 with recommendation you be there 2 hours before (i.e. 04:00) meaning arriving at parkway about 03:30 which is why you need a 24 hour service - and yes these trains can be quite busy even at 02:00 , 03:00, 04:00. They also take people home from a night out in London. if it wasn't needed it wouldn't run.

 

[Hadders]

Luton airport and Gatwick airport justify the 24 hour service. Cambridge doesn't.

Perish the thought that someone might need to travel from a late night arrival at Gatwick, Heathrow or even a very ate night in London.

[1] There is one set that doesn't go to "bed" - the 0134 service from Euston northbound goes back south as the 03something from MKC.

Not sure if ot still does but I think the same thing happens with the last Kings Cross - Peterborough service forming the first Peterborough - Kings Cross service. Something like a 0315 arrival at PBO and a 0324 departure.

So your flight arrives a little late and by the time you go through passport control and collect your bags it's gone 01:00, then bus to Parkway 01:30/02:00 ish. First scheduled flights (apart from some charters that do run between those hours) at 06:00 with recommendation you be there 2 hours before (i.e. 04:00) meaning arriving at parkway about 03:30 which is why you need a 24 hour service - and yes these trains can be quite busy even at 02:00 , 03:00, 04:00. They also take people home from a night out in London. if it wasn't needed it wouldn't run.

Agreed.

 

[Fred26]

Not sure if ot still does but I think the same thing happens with the last Kings Cross - Peterborough service forming the first Peterborough - Kings Cross service. Something like a 0315 arrival at PBO and a 0324 departure.

That used to be a different set. Not sure about now.

 

[jon0844]

I also very much doubt the passenger numbers would justify the all night train/bus service, unless somebody decides to build "Biggleswade International Airport" fairly near the line.

I wasn't going as far as suggesting extra trains in the night, rather a train that already runs going into public service.

 

[jon0844]

So your flight arrives a little late and by the time you go through passport control and collect your bags it's gone 01:00, then bus to Parkway 01:30/02:00 ish. First scheduled flights (apart from some charters that do run between those hours) at 06:00 with recommendation you be there 2 hours before (i.e. 04:00) meaning arriving at parkway about 03:30 which is why you need a 24 hour service - and yes these trains can be quite busy even at 02:00 , 03:00, 04:00. They also take people home from a night out in London. if it wasn't needed it wouldn't run.

These trains are surprisingly busy, even in the week. Not all appear drunk from a night out, so are likely made up of shift workers too. And not all go to Luton or Gatwick, so are not tourists.

But I am not on about a 24/7 service on the GN side, just one train that allows people an earlier trip north from London.