GTR & LOROL disruption on 18-19 July 2016

[hwl]

I think the previous one was at Sydenham - I seem to recall a TSR on the up slow there several months ago, just after the crossover had been renewed.

There have been several...

I also suspect that building the new flats over the sewer to the west of the track may not have helped...

 

[physics34]

I think the previous one was at Sydenham - I seem to recall a TSR on the up slow there several months ago, just after the crossover had been renewed.

This is about a quarter of a mile from that crossover. It would consistently have a wet patch there. I must admit when I first heard the news about this i did first expect it to be this crossover again!

I wonder if there is a major issue now with the whole route of the old canal? A bigger sinkhole in the height of the rush hour causing a derailment at 70mph would not be very nice at all.

 

[Deepgreen]

This is about a quarter of a mile from that crossover. It would consistently have a wet patch there. must admit when I first heard the news about this did first expect it to be this crossover again!

I wonder if there is a major issue now with the whole route of the old canal? A bigger sinkhole in the height of the rush hour causing a derailment at 70mph would not be very nice at all.

Is it known how the canal was filled in to accommodate the railway (materials, etc.)? Recent wet years may be leading to a linear problem here.

 

[tsr]

Lines now expected to remain closed until end of service today (19th). Thanks to whichever member it was who edited the thread title!

Regarding the canal, I must say that the history of this particular route has always interested me and I am not surprised it is being called into question on here. I was well aware of the section able to be seen in Penge, etc. The sewer under the hole is active, but I would certainly not discount unstable old canal workings in the vicinity, either. The thing is, I do tend to struggle to find information about the canal and the engineering to convert it into a railway, partially (I should think) because this is one of London's older rail routes. Indeed the patterns of railway development in this area, and further towards both London Bridge and Crystal Palace, do basically remain fundamental factors in the layout of the lines, and therefore transport capacity, today - yet a lot of the evidence seems hard to glean at times. It does strike me that something could have dried up and contracted in the heat following so many patches of very wet weather recently, or that an old watercourse could gradually have been washing away material above, which had supported the track and was falling into it long before this issue arose, but I don't know if either of these are plausible in the absence of any evidence which I have seen. I'm extremely open to suggestions on these ideas as I am not a geologist and don't have any engineering qualifications relevant to this particular issue!

 

[Deepgreen]

Lines now expected to remain closed until end of service today (19th). Thanks to whichever member it was who edited the thread title!

Regarding the canal, I must say that the history of this particular route has always interested me and I am not surprised it is being called into question on here. I was well aware of the section able to be seen in Penge, etc. The sewer under the hole is active, but I would certainly not discount unstable old canal workings in the vicinity, either. The thing is, I do tend to struggle to find information about the canal and the engineering to convert it into a railway, partially (I should think) because this is one of London's older rail routes. Indeed the patterns of railway development in this area, and further towards both London Bridge and Crystal Palace, do basically remain fundamental factors in the layout of the lines, and therefore transport capacity, today - yet a lot of the evidence seems hard to glean at times. It does strike me that something could have dried up and contracted in the heat following so many patches of very wet weather recently, or that an old watercourse could gradually have been washing away material above, which had supported the track and was falling into it long before this issue arose, but I don't know if either of these are plausible in the absence of any evidence which I have seen. I'm extremely open to suggestions on these ideas as I am not a geologist and don't have any engineering qualifications relevant to this particular issue!

That sounds like a very plausible possibility. A combination of adjacent high-ish ground, an old man-made watercourse (canal), natural drainage routes and Victorian sewers which are reaching their end-of-life state does not bode well for a railway on top!

 

[Baggypants]

With it being an active sewer will anything concrete happen soon or are NW just going through the motions?

 

[maniacmartin]

It's now been officially confirmed to be a collapsed sewer.

Extracts from the latest Network Rail press release

... A hole in the track at Forest Hill disrupted services from yesterday afternoon and Network Rail engineers have been working with Thames Water throughout the night to identify and fix this problem.

Engineers are putting dry concrete into the hole, which will form a base where wet concrete will be poured on top. When the concrete has set, around 50 tonnes of ballast will be poured into the hole with the aim of opening the railway tomorrow. The time required for the concrete to set means the work will take the remainder of the day and evening.

Carl Leadbetter, Thames Water’s regional network manager, said: “Our teams continue to work as fast as possible on this critical job. While we need to work quickly to reopen the train lines, we also need to consider local residents, who will potentially suffer from sewer flooding if the pipe is not properly enclosed. This is an extremely complex job as the pipe is in a difficult location in the tracks and six metres below the ground.”

Southern's homepage:

On Monday afternoon, a large hole developed below the track in the Forest Hill area (between East Croydon and London Bridge). This was later discovered to be a length of sewer which had collapsed. Network Rail and Thames Water are working together to repair and fill the hole.

 

[talldave]

Is the sewer still in use? Surely if it is, it needs repairing, not 50 tonnes of ballast?

 

[Deepgreen]

Is the sewer still in use? Surely if it is, it needs repairing, not 50 tonnes of ballast?

Carl Leadbetter, Thames Water’s regional network manager, said: “Our teams continue to work as fast as possible on this critical job. While we need to work quickly to reopen the train lines, we also need to consider local residents, who will potentially suffer from sewer flooding if the pipe is not properly enclosed. This is an extremely complex job as the pipe is in a difficult location in the tracks and six metres below the ground.”

See this from two posts ago.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I recall we had a 20ft hole appear in PF9 at Euston one afternoon when I was "in charge" - the up DC 313 stopped short thanks to alert driver....no great harm done.....and the platform could be used for a 3 car at the country end. Under caution of course.

Turned out to be part of the 1837 Euston station cellars - which had not been been capped properly in 1965 /66 - about 40 tons of ballast shovelled in overnight did the trick ...

 

[FOH]

Looks like no trains running to Lewisham from London now too until the end of the day due to signal failure, there goes my diversionary route to Catford

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Now that it's confirmed to be a collapsed sewer will the track need lifting to gain access to repair it?

 

[swt_passenger]

Now that it's confirmed to be a collapsed sewer will the track need lifting to gain access to repair it?

I thought a NR statement linked above already explained how it was to be fixed?

 

[maniacmartin]

It is not obvious to me what they mean by 'dry concrete'. Could this be a premade reinforced slab that will be placed underground over the sewer perhaps? If so, it would seem likely to me that the track would have to be lifted to gain access.

 

[mrmartin]

Wow. This is just going so wrong.

Of the trains that WERE running from LBG despite emergency timetable & sinkhole, looks like there has been a complete signal failure at cannon street so what was left over can't run.

 

[14sutton]

Looks a total mess at Brighton!


http://www.juicebrighton.com/news/brighton-news/2043564/police-called-in-as-brighton-station-closes/

 

[neilm]

Looks a total mess at Brighton!


http://www.juicebrighton.com/news/brighton-news/2043564/police-called-in-as-brighton-station-closes/

The whole network is, something big went wrong at Gatwick and stacked all south bound trains for 90 mins it seems.

Thameslink had a broken down train at West Hampstead at the same time.

 

[14sutton]

A fault with the signalling system between Haywards Heath and Gatwick Airport is causing delays of up to 60 minutes to trains through Gatwick Airport. This is expected to continue until the end of the day.

 

[mrmartin]

My friend needs to travel to Croydon tomorrow am for a job interview at about 9am, she can either go to canada water (for west croydon), blackfairs or LBG. What's the best option?

 

[jopsuk]

start walking

 

[neilm]

My friend needs to travel to Croydon tomorrow am for a job interview at about 9am, she can either go to canada water (for west croydon), blackfairs or LBG. What's the best option?

Taxi, bus or walk. Sadly I am not joking, most peoples journeys this evening are taking 2 - 3 hours, if forest hill over runs I would allow 3 hours tomorrow. There will be no overground tomorrow if it does, no lbg services and Thameslink had been stuffed this evening.

That leave Victoria with 2 - 3 hours delays, I wish them luck.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Taxi, bus or walk

Or even tube / train and then tram!

 

[maniacmartin]

Where is your friend travelling from?

 

[mrmartin]

Where is your friend travelling from?

Stratford

 

[Hophead]

My friend needs to travel to Croydon tomorrow am for a job interview at about 9am, she can either go to canada water (for west croydon), blackfairs or LBG. What's the best option?

Victoria.

Well, at time of writing, anyway. Blackfriars (which you say your friend can access) to Victoria is on the Circle / District and the trains to East Croydon ought to be running at GTR's passenger-friendly 3-13 minutes frequency.

 

[maniacmartin]

The video in this recent tweet from Network Rail appears to show that no track is being lifted.

mrmartin, I would advise your friend to check Southern's website and the realtimetrains page for London Bridge tomorow morning. Switch to detailed and look at the previous 30 mins to see if things are running normally. If they are, I would go to London Bridge. Otherwise, Victoria (changing from the Jubilee at Westminster)

 

[hozza94]

Stratford

Providing that the Victoria services are back to normal tomorrow, leaving at 7.30 would be safe.
(I live near Stratford and commutes to Croydon this summer)

 

[Bald Rick]

My friend needs to travel to Croydon tomorrow am for a job interview at about 9am, she can either go to canada water (for west croydon), blackfairs or LBG. What's the best option?

The hole has been filled, tamping being done overnight. Line expected to open for first trains in the morning. So I would say London Bridge.

 

[Antman]

My friend needs to travel to Croydon tomorrow am for a job interview at about 9am, she can either go to canada water (for west croydon), blackfairs or LBG. What's the best option?

London Bridge I would say, if the Forest Hill situation has been resolved alls well but if not Hayes train to Elmers End and Tramlink to Croydon.

 

[LBSCR Times]

The whole network is, something big went wrong at Gatwick and stacked all south bound trains for 90 mins it seems.

Track circuit failure at Gatwick, with no indication of detection on the points in the ASC.
At the same time NR were in Key Route Strategy at Earlswood, so services cannot cross from Fast to Slow etc.
KRS is where the rail temperature reaches a certain level and then at certain locations the signaller does not use the points.