Guard opening local door on wrong side to hand items over

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by ScotrailINV, 10 Jun 2015.

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  1. ScotrailINV

    ScotrailINV Member

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    Evening all,

    Hoping someone a bit more knowledgeable can answer a question for me!

    Don't want to go into too much detail on here as it's an open forum and you never know who is reading, but I was travelling on a service today that was stopped in a platform awaiting a crossing service to arrive so we could depart on the single line ahead.

    Once the incoming train had entered the station, the guard on my service opened the doors on the 'wrong side' (ie facing away from the platform, onto the other line) and shouted for the guard on the other service. When they guard came round from the rear doors of the other train, my guard shouted to him about a passenger that left the train earlier leaving belongings behind and threw a bag over the 6ft from my train to the guard on the other service to hand in to the station up the line. I've attached a rough pic done in paint in case I've not explained it well!

    I was just wondering if there is anything in the rulebook or operating standards that prohibits the doors on the wrong side being opened for this purpose?

    Not wanting to complain or grass anyone up, just genuine curiosity! If I was in the guard's shoes I would probably have done the same - there is no overbridge at this station and access to the other platform is a fair walk!

    Cheers all!
     

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  2. westcoaster

    westcoaster Established Member

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    Was it just the local door or all doors.
     
  3. ScotrailINV

    ScotrailINV Member

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    Just the local door. Train was fairly quiet with no-one in the vestibule area at the time.
     
  4. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    On my patch I would expect it could still lead at very least to several interviews without coffee, and a world of paperwork and nausea for the guard, with competence haunting their every move for the next few years after their lengthy retraining period.

    Assuming they kept their job, that is...
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2015
  5. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Even for just the local door?
     
  6. 380gk

    380gk Member

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    This is a serious breach of all the rules and, at the very least, could have been achieved without compromising the safety of the passengers on board and themselves.
     
  7. ScotrailINV

    ScotrailINV Member

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    Thanks for that Flamingo and others, that's along the lines I was thinking.

    I had to hand it to the guard for noticing the belongings left behind and using his initiative to get them to the station the woman left at for her to collect instead of sending them to a central lost property office, but I guess in this day and age you have to follow the rules to the letter, for good reason.

    Thanks all.
     
  8. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    A few years ago, a Guard was killed by falling out an offside door that was open...
     
  9. westcoaster

    westcoaster Established Member

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    That was a cab door was it not. I'm guessing this would be a 158 the op is on about.
     
  10. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    So the thread title is wrong, almost up to the standards of the Daily Mail!
     
  11. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Correct now I believe ;)
     
  12. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    I'm not sure of the details, it was a while ago.
     
  13. ScotrailINV

    ScotrailINV Member

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    *Hangs head in shame*

    Out of interest, is door opening something the OTMR would capture? Or is that just interlinked to 'cabside' stuff?
     
  14. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    No idea, I'm afraid. I'm sure somebody will know...
     
  15. TDK

    TDK Established Member

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    OTMR will monitor door interlock
     
  16. scott118

    scott118 Member

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    OTMR - big brother
     
  17. OpsWeb

    OpsWeb Member

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    Most OTMR systems have 2 versions of the download. One for Driver Management and one for technical staff.

    The Driver Management one will show only relevant information for example train speed, door interlock, TPWS activity etc... but will only show generalised information with regard to doors. E.g. "passenger doors on left side energised", but doesn't say which individual door was open or closed or where the doors were energised from.

    The technical one is for fitters and contains as much detail as possible, for example which door relays were energised, brake pressures, OHL volts etc...
     
  18. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    If it's the one I'm thinking of (on what is now Northern but I think was still fNW at the time, I sort-of knew him) the train was moving and it was on the open line, not a station?
     
  19. ANorthernGuard

    ANorthernGuard Established Member

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    He was a Mcr Vic guard who fell through the slam door on a 150/1 about 6 years ago. No one knows what really happened but I know he was a popular lad at Vic and it hit the depot quite hard.
     
  20. Bodiddly

    Bodiddly Member

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    Are you explicitly told not to do this when training as a guard? Then you don't do it. It really is that simple. As with the many other posts on this forum have shown, disobeying the rules can bring on massive consequences as senior management love to sack someone once in a while to show they still have some teeth left. Would this have caused a delay if the guard had walked round to hand it to the other? If yes then he could have waited until he had either come to a station with a member of staff to hand or taken the bag back themselves when they were next up. To potentially put yourself in the firing line because somebody left a bag behind on your train is just plain daft.
    I refuse to cut any corners where I work no matter how insignificant as I'm not getting sacked so I can look good to the company as it is the company who will be doing the sacking.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2015
  21. physics34

    physics34 Established Member

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    One of these things that people put on Twitter and get railway staff the sack. It's wrong of course but is quite menial and no harm was done. There isn't anything official in the rule book.
     
  22. WCMLaddict

    WCMLaddict Member

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    It did indeed, mainly because we will never know how accidental it really was...
     
  23. MichaelAMW

    MichaelAMW Member

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    And even if something is not explicitly mentioned, the very first section of Rule Book Module G1, General safety responsibilities and personal track safety for non-track workers, tells you:

    "Safety must always be your first concern. If there is no rule that allows or prevents you doing something you believe must be done, you must do it in the safest way you know taking into account your training and experience."

    So I'm guessing that the interpretation of that would be something like: sometimes you need to open doors on the off side, for reason so and so, but most of the time you don't need to if the other side is next to a platform, which is a much safer place to get on and off.
     
  24. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Yes, that's him. A sad loss. Wasn't a close friend, but I knew him from uk.railway and had been on a couple of trips round the network (e.g. the VT S&C loco-hauls) with him.
     
  25. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    Thank you bb21, that is much more relevant to the question actually being asked, but not quite so dramatic as it was originally.:lol:
     
  26. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    It was the small slam door on a 150, the one that opens into the vestibule that passengers aren't allowed into.
     
  27. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Member

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    Don't those doors normally open inwards?

    As an nb, a friend of my cousin fell from a slam door train about 30 years ago and was killed. Even now with central locking I still don't lean on the doors.
     
  28. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    I think there is.
     
  29. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    On 158s/159s can the internal door between the vestibule and the main passenger area be temporarily locked by the guard?
     
  30. iantherev

    iantherev Member

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    Yes - on SWT the door to the front vestibule is secured as a matter of course in the leading unit.
     
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