Guardian: "Penalised train passengers fight ticketing rules"

[island]

For advances with missing reservation, I think one of our other resident guards offers the option of owning up and paying a walk-up fare with discounts, or him phoning through and if it's the wrong train it's an SOS/TIR.

 

[WelshBluebird]

but when the railway suffers from thing beyond their control, the passengers don't give up on their conditions

Although the railways do manage to get out of paying compensation when the delay is deemed not to be their fault. Not quite the same thing, but it shows the railways do ensure a difference is made when it is in their favour.

 

[John @ home]

the railways do manage to get out of paying compensation when the delay is deemed not to be their fault.

This is no longer always the case. It applies to older franchises, for example

Journeys on (former) First Great Western Link Services

If you hold a ticket for a single or return ticket, or a Weekly Season Ticket, and your train is delayed or cancelled due to the fault of the rail industry, you will be entitled to compensation in National Rail travel vouchers of at least 50% of the price you paid for the
delayed journey if:
• You are delayed by more than one hour on a rail journey of an hour or more
• You are delayed by more than 30 minutes on a rail journey of less than an hour

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/...engers Charter Booklet B_006_0409 FOR WEB.pdf

but not to newer franchises, for example

East Coast

Our Delay Repay compensation scheme applies to all ticket types (including Season Ticket holders) and is irrespective of what caused the delay. ... Customers delayed on East Coast services between 30 and 59 minutes will receive compensation of at least 50% of the cost of a single ticket or at least 50% of the cost of either portion of a return ticket.

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/passengers-charter1/delay-repay/

 

[wijit]

Good luck getting this restriction printed on a Crewe to Euston Off-Peak Return:





I think the best we can hope for is getting tickets printed with the restriction code that passengers can then look up on line (though a much more user friendly version than currently exists on NRE would be needed) or from a booklet published at the same time as fare changes (though that would probably be expensive). Certainly it would be a step in the right direction to have the code printed on tickets.

I think you might have identified a slight flaw in my suggestion.

 

[IanXC]

Good luck getting this restriction printed on a Crewe to Euston Off-Peak Return:





I think the best we can hope for is getting tickets printed with the restriction code that passengers can then look up on line (though a much more user friendly version than currently exists on NRE would be needed) or from a booklet published at the same time as fare changes (though that would probably be expensive). Certainly it would be a step in the right direction to have the code printed on tickets.

Printed on how many coupons? hock:

 

[sheff1]

The thing to remember about Advance tickets is that they started out as a way for TOC's to put bums on seats on quieter trains, and to direct people onto these quieter trains. When this becomes abused enough, then there will be nothing in it for TOC's, and they will discontinue them as more hassle than they are worth.

They did indeed start that way, but now I can usually book Advance tickets for trains which I know will be absolutely rammed. I assume the TOCs are happy to sell them as they get all the revenue rather than less than half from a non-advance ticket.

 

[Greenback]

They did indeed start that way, but now I can usually book Advance tickets for trains which I know will be absolutely rammed. I assume the TOCs are happy to sell them as they get all the revenue rather than less than half from a non-advance ticket.

This is true of course. In BR days Advance (Apex) tickets were a useful way of selling a few tickets to fill up empty seats on the presumption that £10 was better than nothing.

Now, the economics of Advance tickets is completely different. Yield management is far more complex, as different TOC's are involved rather than one large organisation. Also the revenue from admin fees, upgrading tickets before travel and having to buy a new ticket on train also need to be taken into account.

I don't see Advance tickets being withdrawn, no matter how bad the publicity gets, but TOC's may become even more strict in the enforcement of the T&C's, and cheaper tickets may become more difficult to find. Whether this would be anythign to do with articles in the media would be difficult to know though!

 

[exile]

What beggars belief is that TOCs are willing to haul empty first class coaches around. If McNulty wants to look at cutting costs the fuel or electricity needed to drag 35 tons of empty space for 200 miles should be in his firing line.

 

[Greenback]

What beggars belief is that TOCs are willing to haul empty first class coaches around. If McNulty wants to look at cutting costs the fuel or electricity needed to drag 35 tons of empty space for 200 miles should be in his firing line.

Are you proposing removing some, or all, of the first class carriages from inter city type trains? That is the only way I can see of reducing fuel costs and weight.

However, the revenue that can be gianed from a first class carriage with five people in it could equate to a standard class coach full of people on Advance tickets.

This would alter the business profile as much as any other suggestion there has been in this thread!

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is true of course. In BR days Advance (Apex) tickets were a useful way of selling a few tickets to fill up empty seats on the presumption that £10 was better than nothing.

Now, the economics of Advance tickets is completely different.

Interesting point; very thought-provoking. I guess we're saying that having loads of advances available at a price not much less than half that of the off-peak return, on trains that will be full anyway, is a sneaky way for TOCs to work around the prohibition on setting TOC-only fares on flows where they are the lead operator.

It could possibly even be considered a side-effect that these come with all the baggage of no refunds, ticket has no value if used on the wrong train etc. In some cases the TOCs would probably be happy to set TOC-only walk-up fares at the same price as their more expensive advances if they could get away with it. They'd get the same revenue, but much fewer unhappy customers, and the argument that it would cause overcrowding because of moving away from the yield management approach wouldn't hold since they've been selling advances for packed trains anyway.

 

[Flamingo]

Interesting point; very thought-provoking. I guess we're saying that having loads of advances available at a price not much less than half that of the off-peak return, on trains that will be full anyway, is a sneaky way for TOCs to work around the prohibition on setting TOC-only fares on flows where they are the lead operator.

I'm amazed that penny hasn't dropped with everybody sooner...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What beggars belief is that TOCs are willing to haul empty first class coaches around. If McNulty wants to look at cutting costs the fuel or electricity needed to drag 35 tons of empty space for 200 miles should be in his firing line.

First class pays for itself during peak times. If it did not, then TOC's would have lost it years ago (or reduced the size). There is no realistic way to take the carriages out of formation during the day for a few hours, it would mean several hours work in a depot for no good reason.

 

[sheff1]

I'm amazed that penny hasn't dropped with everybody sooner...

Well quite, but I am now confused as to why you said TOCs will discontinue Advances due to the hassle.

I agree with this ...

I don't see Advance tickets being withdrawn, no matter how bad the publicity gets, but TOC's may become even more strict in the enforcement of the T&C's, and cheaper tickets may become more difficult to find.

 

[Flamingo]

Well quite, but I am now confused as to why you said TOCs will discontinue Advances due to the hassle.

I said they might, if they become a liability to them in terms of revenue.

 

[sheff1]

I said they might, if they become a liability to them in terms of revenue.

Oh, that must be a different post ... the one I saw said 'will'.

 

[IanXC]

I said they might, if they become a liability to them in terms of revenue.

Which makes it all the more intriguing that Northern are just introducing them!

 

[bb21]

Oh, that must be a different post ... the one I saw said 'will'.

I don't see the issue. There is clearly a condition that "When this becomes abused enough".

 

[AndyLandy]

First class pays for itself during peak times. If it did not, then TOC's would have lost it years ago (or reduced the size). There is no realistic way to take the carriages out of formation during the day for a few hours, it would mean several hours work in a depot for no good reason.

I'm surprised that during off-peak, TOCs don't either declassify a 1st carriage, and/or offer more cheap advance 1st fares or offpeak-only 1st fares. I guess the major concern here is the risk of devaluing the peak 1st service and abstracting business from the core 1st class traveller?

Interesting point; very thought-provoking. I guess we're saying that having loads of advances available at a price not much less than half that of the off-peak return, on trains that will be full anyway, is a sneaky way for TOCs to work around the prohibition on setting TOC-only fares on flows where they are the lead operator.

So how do London Midland get away with it? You can buy a Euston-Crewe walk-on fare that's routed "LM Only". Surely they can't be the only TOC who are allowed to do this? The only thing I can think of is something clever along the lines of routeing via Northampton (since technically VWC don't go that way)

Also, it's interesting to finally see a revelation as to why there are fractionally-cheaper-than-walk-on AP fares. I have to confess that I really despise these, particularly when booking engines try and tell me "You want these! They're best value!" -- I'd rather spend the extra tenner on a walk-on fare that's got fewer restrictions. The only time I'd ever buy one is as part of a return journey where I got the other leg for an absolute bargain.

 

[Robinson]

So how do London Midland get away with it? You can buy a Euston-Crewe walk-on fare that's routed "LM Only". Surely they can't be the only TOC who are allowed to do this? The only thing I can think of is something clever along the lines of routeing via Northampton (since technically VWC don't go that way)

My guess would be because LM are not the "lead operator" on this route, and are therefore allowed to do this.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So how do London Midland get away with it? You can buy a Euston-Crewe walk-on fare that's routed "LM Only". Surely they can't be the only TOC who are allowed to do this?....

The 'lead operator' refers to the TOC that sets the 'Rte Any Permitted' fares, in the case of London-Crewe, that is Virgin Trains, so London Midland are perfectly entitled to set a 'Rte LM Only' fare for it.

 

[jon0844]

What beggars belief is that TOCs are willing to haul empty first class coaches around. If McNulty wants to look at cutting costs the fuel or electricity needed to drag 35 tons of empty space for 200 miles should be in his firing line.

First class can bring a lot of money to a TOC, but I agree that at some times in the day it can lead to a lot of fresh air being carried.

Declassifying during the off-peak period is an idea, except for that business travellers who paid for first class for a meeting might not appreciate travelling back to the office/home with a FC ticket and being mixed in with everyone, and no first class service.

I'd sooner have TOCs working out ways to encourage more off-peak FC travel, from off-peak upgrades, more advance tickets or even cheaper off-peak tickets in first class. I'm sure the industry can figure that out, rather than axe something that allows some passengers to effectively subsidise those in standard. (Edit: I see that's already been suggested!)

 

[Oscar]

My guess would be because LM are not the "lead operator" on this route, and are therefore allowed to do this.

There are East Coast only tickets on the East Coast Mainline where East Coast is the lead operator by hairyhandedfool's definition.

 

[John @ home]

There are East Coast only tickets on the East Coast Mainline where East Coast is the lead operator

Yes, for example York - London Terminals has route EC Only for ticket types FOS, BFR and FOR (plus 3 others costing £999 or more). But none of these is a regulated or protected fare, which for this journey is the £94.10 SSR.

I think it is this regulated or protected fare that the lead operator is prevented from undercutting with a TOC-specific fare.

 

[island]

There are East Coast only tickets on the East Coast Mainline where East Coast is the lead operator by hairyhandedfool's definition.

Only standard class has the restriction, and in certain circumstances the lead operator can bring in a TOC-only fare on a promotional basis. There are also some special arrangements on London Terminals to Milton Keynes C and v/v as well as the Brighton main line.

 

[jkdd77]

Only standard class has the restriction, and in certain circumstances the lead operator can bring in a TOC-only fare on a promotional basis. There are also some special arrangements on London Terminals to Milton Keynes C and v/v as well as the Brighton main line.

Interestingly, it has been possible for a long time to buy a SOR from Retford to London Kings Cross rte 'EC & Connections', which slightly undercuts the 'Any Permitted' SOR fare (£149 v £174).

 

[bb21]

Interestingly, it has been possible for a long time to buy a SOR from Retford to London Kings Cross rte 'EC & Connections', which slightly undercuts the 'Any Permitted' SOR fare (£149 v £174).

I think it is this regulated or protected fare that the lead operator is prevented from undercutting with a TOC-specific fare.

I don't think the SOR fare is a regulated fare for Retford - London Terminals.