Guards of this forum, what do you to negate the risk of giving a RTS bell on a red signal?

[43066]

DRA isn’t an automatic protection against this.

Effective/meaningful RTC should be used in conjunction with it to prevent it becoming just a complacency. Sometimes DRA is forgotten, or used but in a complacent manner and not thought about as to why it was set in the first place. It has been known for drivers to be given the bells and then just reset the DRA and continue, without verbalising anything and thus making the DRA pointless.

Yep, totally agree. If you get two on a red and SPAD, you’ve had an incident. The fact the guard has had one too doesn’t make yours any less serious!

absolutely. I’m in the mind set that I work in a team and we should all look out for each other rather than trying to get people in trouble and delay services. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll always go and have a word with the guard to make sure they’re aware of what’s just happened.

It’s a good idea, although of course it will only work on stock where the cab doors are on the interlock circuit.

 

[PennineSuperb]

Yep, totally agree. If you get two on a red and SPAD, you’ve had an incident, the fact the guard has had one too doesn’t make yours any less serious!



It’s a good idea, although of course it will only work on stock where the cab doors are on the interlock circuit.

Or the Driver is stood on the platform having a look at the very interesting information on the signal number plate!

 

[bunnahabhain]

Whilst I don't do it all the time, I tend to stand facing the train if it's a red, and facing the signal if its a proceed aspect.

 

[Meerkat]

If the guard does get it wrong, but the driver doesn’t go, do the drivers report it or the guards confess?

 

[DorkingMain]

If the guard does get it wrong, but the driver doesn’t go, do the drivers report it or the guards confess?

May be different at other TOCs but where I am the guard is expected to report themselves to control after doing it, and the driver would be expected to do an incident report by the end of their turn of duty along the lines of "My guard gave me bells on a red and I didn't go"

 

[43066]

If the guard does get it wrong, but the driver doesn’t go, do the drivers report it or the guards confess?

Depends on how much the driver likes the guard .

Officially the guard should confess immediately and the driver should also call it in if they have concerns about the fitness of the guard. I’d imagine (and hope) that most drivers would have a discrete word rather than dropping someone in it for the sake of it.

 

[Meerkat]

Depends on how much the driver likes the guard .

Officially the guard should confess immediately and the driver should also call it in if they have concerns about the fitness of the guard. I’d imagine (and hope) that most drivers would have a discrete word rather than dropping someone in it for the sake of it.

That’s why I was asking - I wouldn’t want to be in the position where I should report a colleague friend, but could probably get away with not doing it, nor being a junior driver deciding whether to report a popular old timer.
Even harder decision for the guard if they don’t know if the driver will do it so have to decide whether they must do it (I assume it’s double trouble if the driver reports it and you haven’t)

 

[Undiscovered]

Personally, I fold my arms and stand well back from the train if the signal is red. Saves me being tempted to fiddle with anything. I might key off and moodle up to get the number, for my delay report too

If we're changing ends, especially with a tight turnaround, I always ask Drive to keep his door open until he's ready to go and won't accept a tip/begin dispatch until it closes. I want him setup and happy before we go anywhere, courtesy I suppose.

And a guard should report himself if giving two on a red. On our stock, you can hear the bell in the saloon and you never know who's on board- off duty drivers from your own/other TOCs, managers. It only takes an off hand comment in a mess room to trigger an investigation and then you're deffo out the door for breach of trust.
Having made an operational error, I was told if I'd attempted to cover it up, I would have been sacked immediately. Reporting it saved my career.

 

[scrapy]

Officially both the driver and the guard should report it. I know of drivers who have been interviewed for failing to report it when the guard has. In the same way guards have been disciplined for not reporting driver incidents such as over-runs and fail to calls.

Teamwork works both ways in the same way an experienced guard on realising a driver has not made initial brake application at usual point for a station that's on an irregular stopping pattern may make an unusually loud PA announcement for the station (if traction allows this to be heard in the cab).

 

[Stigy]

Depends on how much the driver likes the guard .

Officially the guard should confess immediately and the driver should also call it in if they have concerns about the fitness of the guard. I’d imagine (and hope) that most drivers would have a discrete word rather than dropping someone in it for the sake of it.

It’s a horrible position to be in I’d imagine. Naturally during training we are all told that we must report it etc. The problem is, you could be doing them a really big favour in not “dropping them in it”, but you don’t know who else is about a lot of the time and a driver who has a quiet word rather than goes through the correct channels will certainly be made an example of if they’re found not to have reported something like this.

If it’s a train with passengers on board, at a busy location, I’d like to think it goes without saying that the guard would report themselves, the driver would do his/her bit too and grownup conversations would be had between driver and guard to be open and honest about it.

 

[ijmad]

I'm a Driver and have never been a Guard but one of my techniques is to point at a signal twice before moving my train if stopped at a platform and have received the ready to start and saying the aspect out loud. Maybe a Guard could point at the signal when initially opening the doors and verbalise the aspect shown and then also when it's time for departure.

On Japanese railways so-called 'pointing and calling' at each signal is compulsory. Also on the NYC subway, conductors also have to point at a board to check the train is correctly aligned with the platform. Apparently it's helpful getting the brain to 'reset' and concentrate on each important thing. Not sure if you knew about the Japanese technique but it seems you have come to the same conclusion!

 

[Stigy]

On Japanese railways so-called 'pointing and calling' at each signal is compulsory. Also on the NYC subway, conductors also have to point at a board to check the train is correctly aligned with the platform. Apparently it's helpful getting the brain to 'reset' and concentrate on each important thing. Not sure if you knew about the Japanese technique but it seems you have come to the same conclusion!

Similar to “press and call” which precedes Risk Triggered Commentary (RTC) I believe (I recall being told something along those lines during rules training). I guess different TOCs do it in different ways, but at my TOC using RTC is mandated for new drivers. As far as I’m aware, Guards also use RTC?

As long as it’s meaningful (not just a commentary drive etc), RTC is an effective way of mitigating against incidents but you have to still avoid it becoming a complacency.

 

[43066]

It’s a horrible position to be in I’d imagine. Naturally during training we are all told that we must report it etc. The problem is, you could be doing them a really big favour in not “dropping them in it”, but you don’t know who else is about a lot of the time and a driver who has a quiet word rather than goes through the correct channels will certainly be made an example of if they’re found not to have reported something like this.

If it’s a train with passengers on board, at a busy location, I’d like to think it goes without saying that the guard would report themselves, the driver would do his/her bit too and grownup conversations would be had between driver and guard to be open and honest about it.

Yep, hasn’t happened to be either (yet).

I’d like to think the driver’s role in that situation is just not to SPAD, and then be entitled to “assume” the guard has made the necessary phone call etc. We are not their managers.

 

[RuralSquad93]

When I was a guard, I used to get off the train & look immediately at the signal. Where possible, if starter was at danger, I'd always dispatch from the very front door of the train, observing PTI whilst walking to the front panel & would stare at the signal until such a time it cleared. If there was a dispatcher, I'd ensure my back was too them as they'd be towards the rear of the train thus negating the opportunity for them to despatch the train against a red ... and if they did you simply ignore the whistle or 'don't see it' because you're not looking at the dispatcher due to being fixed on the danger aspect ... One station on our route card was a particular hotspot for this in my time as a guard.

Ofcourse as soon as the signal cleared, I'd swivel round & complete the correct and proper dispatch procedure.

 

[Meerkat]

Is it a rule to not even close the doors on a red - Doesn’t that just compound any delays?

 

[Intermodal]

Is it a rule to not even close the doors on a red - Doesn’t that just compound any delays?

Yes it is a rule.

Delays are irrelevant in the face of ensuring safety.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

I would put keys in but not turn them, may not be possible on all traction but was on 221 & 390.
If you habitually started the bell buzzer codes it wouldn’t sound so you had to stop, think what you was doing

 

[Tomnick]

Yep, hasn’t happened to be either (yet).

I’d like to think the driver’s role in that situation is just not to SPAD, and then be entitled to “assume” the guard has made the necessary phone call etc. We are not their managers.

"Seeing that the signal was at danger, I moved away from the driving seat to reduce the SASSPAD risk and took the opportunity to get something out of my bag, and thus must have failed to hear the 'ready to start' signal"

 

[Fokx]

One of the tips I’ve been given is once I have opened the doors to physically wrap a red flag around the hand that I would use to press the door close button whilst the signal is red, only placing it into my pants/waistcoat or blazer pocket when the signal changes to a proceed aspect.

The red colour remind me the signal is at danger and secondly the flag physically wrapped around my fingers is a final reminder not to press the door close button before re-checking the signal.

 

[LordCreed]

I would put keys in but not turn them, may not be possible on all traction but was on 221 & 390.
If you habitually started the bell buzzer codes it wouldn’t sound so you had to stop, think what you was doing

I do exactly the same. Only turn the key when the signal shows a proceed.

The only issue I sometimes find is that I forget to turn the key and then wonder why the doors aren't closing...

 

[Meerkat]

Yes it is a rule.

Delays are irrelevant in the face of ensuring safety.

I accept the principle, but can’t you close all but local and then wait? Or is the risk that people will try to open doors and create a PTI risk?

 

[Tomnick]

I accept the principle, but can’t you close all but local and then wait? Or is the risk that people will try to open doors and create a PTI risk?

I guess the risk is that you start the dispatch process, get into the routine and focus on the train safety check, then forget all about the signal?

 

[Ashley Hill]

If the signals red I stand away from the panel. However if I know the signal will eventually clear ,eg barriers drop ,I will close the doors and then stand on the platform and wait for the board to clear,shut local door and then give RA.

 

[Intermodal]

I accept the principle, but can’t you close all but local and then wait? Or is the risk that people will try to open doors and create a PTI risk?

What @Tomnick said is right - it's all about drilling in procedure. There is a big risk of closing every door but your local and then having something happen either on the train or on the platform that distracts you. When you finish dealing with that you think "Oh damn, we'll be late now" and you quickly close your local, buzz 2, and then you've had an operational incident as the signal never cleared.

I realise if you are not a guard or member of railway staff, you might read this and think "Come on, how hard is it really to just check the signal?". The fact is that when someone completes a task thousands and thousands of times even the most competent people will become complacent and unconsciously start to skip steps - it's human nature. It's all about belt and braces.

If the signals red I stand away from the panel. However if I know the signal will eventually clear ,eg barriers drop ,I will close the doors and then stand on the platform and wait for the board to clear,shut local door and then give RA.

It's clearly up to you and your company how you do your job but this is categorically a rulebook violation. Module SS1, section 3 clearly states that the dispatch procedure, which includes closing doors, must not begin until such time the signal shows a proceed aspect. At my TOC you would be taken off the job for doing this, even at stations where you know the signal is about to change.

 

[LowLevel]

If the signals red I stand away from the panel. However if I know the signal will eventually clear ,eg barriers drop ,I will close the doors and then stand on the platform and wait for the board to clear,shut local door and then give RA.

When I first started as a guard that was standard practice. It was drilled into us some time ago that it is anticipating a situstion before it occurs which is the first step to having an incident. Thus starting the dispatch process before the signal is green is an operational incident that will see you be taken off the job, same as a dispatcher giving the tip against a red. It is a breach of the rules. You wouldn't do it at a manned platform and you shouldn't do it at an unmanned platform.

There is a lot about dispatch at your place that would have our ops standards people giving birth to multiple litters of kittens.

 

[Stigy]

I accept the principle, but can’t you close all but local and then wait? Or is the risk that people will try to open doors and create a PTI risk?

The rulebook states that the dispatch process should only be started once the starting signal clears. In closing the doors the dispatch process has started.

 

[Dieseldriver]

If the signals red I stand away from the panel. However if I know the signal will eventually clear ,eg barriers drop ,I will close the doors and then stand on the platform and wait for the board to clear,shut local door and then give RA.

I'm curious as to how you 'know' that a red signal will definitely clear...

 

[dctraindriver]

I'm curious as to how you 'know' that a red signal will definitely clear...

A driver the other week controlled the movement of their train into a platform as the points were set for the movement they had to make. Didn’t check the red protecting the points however.

I had to give a new guard advice about closing the doors on a red once. its just another opportunity for something to catch you out. Keep it simple is my motto.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I'm curious as to how you 'know' that a red signal will definitely clear...

At a crossing place the down train arrives and you know unless somethings wrong you'll get the road. Or if you've been put inside for one to go past ,once it's gone you know your out next as the timetable says so. I'm believe it's called experience and "situation awareness ".I know familiarity breeds contempt and repetition can lead to errors which is why I stand away rom the controls. If the platform is staffed the my train is dispatched in the correct manner. Just because this is what I do it doesn't imply others at my depot/TOC do it.

 

[olilee2]

As a dispatcher I’ve come up with my own technique to remind myself to check at the start of dispatch (at a mostly doo station). Since we are supposed to be on the platform before the train has pulled in, I would find myself just standing there watching the front of the train as it (quite slowly) drew up and it occurred to me that the sight of me just staring at them for ages must look a bit weird to the driver. Since it’s unlikely (though of course not impossible) for a signal to revert to danger between the train arriving and departing, it’s normally the first check of the signal that will catch a danger aspect during dispatch. I’ve only ever given a tip on a red once when I was quite new (with fatigue combined with a less than obvious OFF indicator the main factors. Luckily I was only an assisting dispatcher and the PIC gave me a discrete flash of the red light on his bat so there were no repercussions but after that I decided I needed a system. So now, as the train is slowly pulling in, to give myself something to do other than awkwardly stare at the driver, I always check the signal at that point to give myself that initial situational awareness (and the time too). Never given a tip on a red since...