Guards: UFNs and Endorsing tickets

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RJ

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A question for any guards on here - you've charged someone for a brand new ticket, as the one they held is apparently invalid on the train. They don't have the funds to pay for a new ticket so you decide to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

Is it standard practice to invalidate the ticket they already held? Also, if it was the outward portion of a return ticket, is it standard practice to invalidate both portions?
 
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Solent&Wessex

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A question for any guards on here - you've charged someone for a brand new ticket, as the one they held is apparently invalid on the train. They don't have the funds to pay for a new ticket so you decide to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

Is it standard practice to invalidate the ticket they already held? Also, if it was the outward portion of a return ticket, is it standard practice to invalidate both portions?
I suppose it will depend on why the ticket seemingly isn't valid. I will normally endorse a ticket with a comment reflecting why it isn't valid. eg "No Railcard" , "Not on permitted route", "Passenger was adult", "Split ticket did not comply with NCOC", "Using off peak at peak time", "On wrong train" or some other suitable wording, and then append my train headcode. This is often for the benefit of customer relations / other colleagues / RPSS as appropriate depending on what is likely to happen afterwards.

In some cases, mainly with railcards I will endorse the return portion "Check Railcard. No R/card on Out Journey". Or a comment such as "Restrictions advised" may be appropriate.

If I am charging an XS fare via a UFN, I will normally put a cross on the original ticket and write "Valid only With UPFN xxxxxxx".
 

GadgetMan

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A question for any guards on here - you've charged someone for a brand new ticket, as the one they held is apparently invalid on the train. They don't have the funds to pay for a new ticket so you decide to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

Is it standard practice to invalidate the ticket they already held? Also, if it was the outward portion of a return ticket, is it standard practice to invalidate both portions?
As above, it would depend on the circumstances.

If the ticket is going to form the basis of contesting the UFN, then it's important to endorse the ticket appropriately as well as including a note on the UFN for IRCAS.


However, if there is any sort of Fraud involved, like youths splitting the OUT and RTN portion of the same ticket and claiming to have lost other half etc, then to teach em a lesson without involving prosecution, I cancel the complete ticket and sell them new ones including the cost of replacing the cancelled ticket.
 

embers25

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A question for any guards on here - you've charged someone for a brand new ticket, as the one they held is apparently invalid on the train. They don't have the funds to pay for a new ticket so you decide to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

Is it standard practice to invalidate the ticket they already held? Also, if it was the outward portion of a return ticket, is it standard practice to invalidate both portions?
I'm assuming your latest encounter with EMT's rather unclued up on fare issues guards did not go well?!!! Wonder which person at EMT will be eating humble pie later?!!
 

RJ

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I'm sorry, it's my fault for being ambiguous with the thread title using the word "endorsed"

The situation is hypothetical, ember25 :). The concept I'm getting at is, is it ok to UFN someone the full price for a brand new ticket (not just a UFN for the price of an excess) as well as vandalising the invalid ticket already held to the extent that it cannot be used?

When I say invalidated, I mean vandalise the ticket to the extent that it cannot be used to operate any ticket barriers and "Not valid" written on it several times. Surely if a ticket has zero value for a journey, it should either be withdrawn as evidence, or disregarded completely if a new ticket is required?
 

ChrisTheRef

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I don't work on board (yet!) but I like to think that if - for example - someone was travelling on a ticket dated 21-MAY-12 on the 12th May, I'd charge them for the new ticket, but not touch the original, allowing to be used correctly when the right date comes round.
 

Oscar

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Why do guards often seem to charge for new tickets when an excess is possible (e.g. travelling at wrong time / travelling without a Railcard etc.)? Is this legal?
 

AlterEgo

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Why do guards often seem to charge for new tickets when an excess is possible (e.g. travelling at wrong time / travelling without a Railcard etc.)? Is this legal?
If you travel without a Railcard, you must be sold an entirely new Anytime ticket and not an excess, as per the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Railcard terms and conditions. Otherwise, there's no disincentive to stop non-Railcard holders trying it on every day if all they have to pay is the difference up to the price they should have paid anyway!

Traveling at the wrong time - depends on the ticket. If it's an Advance, an entirely new ticket must be bought.
 

embers25

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The situation is hypothetical, ember25 :)
Well it is currently hypothetical though given EMT it's just a matter of time before it becomes reality! Joking aside this is a very valid question and also the issue is why there is apparently no standard procedure for such situations. Just like when some barrier assistants on SWT insist on plastering in black marker across my ticket "Ticket Used" when actually I'm just breaking journey...you can imagine the fun later when I come to continue my journey!
 

Oscar

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If you travel without a Railcard, you must be sold an entirely new Anytime ticket and not an excess, as per the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Railcard terms and conditions. Otherwise, there's no disincentive to stop non-Railcard holders trying it on every day if all they have to pay is the difference up to the price they should have paid anyway!

Traveling at the wrong time - depends on the ticket. If it's an Advance, an entirely new ticket must be bought.
My mistake about the Railcard issue - I did know that you can only get an excess for this before travelling.
With Advances you of course also need a new ticket but what about people travelling at peak times with an off-peak ticket who in my limited experience seem to be charged for a new Anytime fare rather than an excess? Do guards then have the right to charge a new fare when an excess is the correct procedure?
 

island

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My mistake about the Railcard issue - I did know that you can only get an excess for this before travelling.
That's also not correct. The correct procedure is that a new ticket is sold, and the old ticket, if a walk-up, can be refunded at a £10 fee. However, some booking offices have in the past allowed the excess.
With Advances you of course also need a new ticket but what about people travelling at peak times with an off-peak ticket who in my limited experience seem to be charged for a new Anytime fare rather than an excess? Do guards then have the right to charge a new fare when an excess is the correct procedure?
Travelling at peak on an off-peak ticket should mean an excess rather than a new ticket, unless a new ticket is cheaper (e.g. London Terminals to Manchester Stns, passenger travels on an off-peak ticket on the 1800 Virgin service, applicable excess is £221.80 for change of ticket type, so sell new Anytime Single for £148 instead). It's a little unclear what happens if there is no appropriate fare to which to excess the ticket held, for example London Terminals to Northampton, passenger holds off-peak return, no anytime return available on the flow.
 

AndyLandy

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It's a little unclear what happens if there is no appropriate fare to which to excess the ticket held, for example London Terminals to Northampton, passenger holds off-peak return, no anytime return available on the flow.
What ticket would you have to buy to make that journey at peak time? Presumably there must be people travelling at peak time from London to Northampton? What ticket would they be offered if they asked for that journey at a ticket office before travelling?
 

Brucey

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What ticket would you have to buy to make that journey at peak time? Presumably there must be people travelling at peak time from London to Northampton? What ticket would they be offered if they asked for that journey at a ticket office before travelling?
These are available returns:

Off Peak Day Return
Off Peak Return
Anytime Day Return

There is no Anytime Return. Question is: what do you excess an off peak return to?
 

clagmonster

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I would assume the price of 2 singles, either both anytime or an anytime and an off peak as appropriate. Quite how you would put it through the Avantic I'm not sure, possible as two separate excesses.
 

island

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What ticket would you have to buy to make that journey at peak time? Presumably there must be people travelling at peak time from London to Northampton? What ticket would they be offered if they asked for that journey at a ticket office before travelling?
An anytime day single, plus an anytime or off-peak day single for their return journey (if the customer wants to purchase the latter ticket at this time).

An off-peak return from somewhere other than London Terminals, such as New Cross or Clapham Junction, would be cheaper than this and valid in the evening peak, but need not be offered by a clerk at London Euston.
These are available returns:

Off Peak Day Return
Off Peak Return
Anytime Day Return

There is no Anytime Return. Question is: what do you excess an off peak return to?
After some investigation, apparently you excess it to double the SDS. And presumably your Avantix machine melts :)
 

Flamingo

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My mistake about the Railcard issue - I did know that you can only get an excess for this before travelling.
With Advances you of course also need a new ticket but what about people travelling at peak times with an off-peak ticket who in my limited experience seem to be charged for a new Anytime fare rather than an excess? Do guards then have the right to charge a new fare when an excess is the correct procedure?
On the lines I work, in a lot of circumstances, it's cheaper to sell a new Anytime ticket, that excess either portion of an off-peak ticket to an Anytime ticket, as the excess will charge for both legs of the journey.

This also applies if the passenger has a day travelcard ticket.

If the ticket in question is an off-peak return ticket that is valid for a month, the passenger will the still have an "unused" off-peak return portion for use on a train in the future, if they buy a new single for the outward journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A question for any guards on here - you've charged someone for a brand new ticket, as the one they held is apparently invalid on the train. They don't have the funds to pay for a new ticket so you decide to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

Is it standard practice to invalidate the ticket they already held? Also, if it was the outward portion of a return ticket, is it standard practice to invalidate both portions?
It depends but usually yes, especially if the ticket has been used in what I consider to be a fraudulent manner, or I have serious doubts about whether the UFN will ever be paid or the correct details have been given, then I may stamp the ticket so they can't "have their cake and eat it" so to speak.

Also, if they are going to appeal the UFN (as is their right), if I've stamped the ticket it is proof that this is the ticket the dispute was over, to cover me as much as anything.
 
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embers25

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I think later came sooner that you might have expected :)
lol good!! Though you really would think they would have learned from their mistakes by now...if only you could put EMT guards in time out like naughty children who continue to make the same mistakes!
 

Solent&Wessex

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Just for information, those of you who are fans of G4S at Manchester Piccadilly will be pleased to note that they (or at least the ones on the overbridge) have been issued with Zifa ticket stampers and have taken to stamping tickets when people are entering platforms to join trains. Wait for the You've used this before / no I haven't / yes you have arguments on board.
 

island

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I don't suppose the stampers would mark 2968 rather than a headcode to indicate the ticket was stamped at a barrier?
 

Solent&Wessex

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I don't suppose the stampers would mark 2968 rather than a headcode to indicate the ticket was stamped at a barrier?
No, they stamp a headcode. They currently appear to be using 1R00, but by time they get to the train having fumbled it around in and out of pockets on the bridge the stamp is just an illegible smudge and virtually impossible to tell whether it is the stamp from the bridge, or from another train on a different date etc etc etc.
 
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