GWML electrification- when does work start?

[TheWalrus]

Hi,

Does anyone know when work will commence on electrification of the GWML? I know they will start at Airport Jn., but I just want to know when "immediate electrification" is?

 

[Old Timer]

It depends upon whether or not they have a proper project specification and infrastructure study yet.

Most decisions will go on the basis of a simple Option Study, the next stage will be a proper survey to establish the track alignment and position against which a proper track and OHL design can be started.

If there is nothing on the table then AT LEAST 12 months will be required as an absolute minimum before even a initial investment design is ready, and that would not be for the whole route either.

There is a massive amount of design work for the OHL and track (potentially) that needs to be undertaken for any scheme. As a first pass they will need to know the rolling stock power requirements, the train service frequencies, and what types of traffic will use the route. In addition proper ground surveys will be necessary so that OHL foundations can be designed.

As an example the Midland Suburban Electrification survey works started in 1973, with the completion of the work in 1982.

 

[Metroland]

Design work started now, tied in with Crossrail, Thames Valley and S Wales resignalling, physical work to begin in 2012 and runs to 2017. Electric trains run to Oxford, Newbury and Bristol in 2016.

Work includes:

Alterations to over 100 bridges and tunnels.
Resignalling work, including major schemes at Reading and Oxford. Fitting of ERTMS cab signalling.
Possible line speed upgrades.
New trains.

But it could all be cancelled by the next government.

 

[TheWalrus]

Do you know when It will be complete as far as Reading?

 

[MCR247]

hi,

does anyone know when work will commence on electrification of the gwml? I know they will start at airport jn., but i just want to know when "immediate electrification" is?

32/14/2179

 

[royaloak]

Or maybe the week after.

 

[SWT Driver]

The day Elvis Presley becomes president of the UK & Michael Jackson becomes his deputy.

 

[truckman060473]

i was thinking about the electrification installation in the uk's longest tunnel. (assuming you don't count the channel tunnel). would train services be halted via this route during such a process or would they keep one track open? it sounds like a nightmare job. when it was built, its headroom wouldn't have been designed to accomodate an OHL so how is that overcome?

 

[SWT Driver]

Well putting the track back in might be an encouraging start.

Because Woodhead tunnel isn't rail connected and at 5,346 yds is the UK's longest tunnel.

 

[Mojo]

5,346 yards = 4,888 metres is less than the 7,008 metres of the Severn Tunnel!

Anyway, isn't the border of the Channel Tunnel half way along it, which at 50km would make it, at 25km the longest tunnel in the country?

 

[truckman060473]

longest tunnel currently in use i mean. just out of interest though, where abouts is that disused tunnel then? i should have just said severn tunnel in the first place to avoid this going off topic!

 

[SWT Driver]

Alright 2nd, the grog is starting to kick in now.:P

 

[devon_metro]

Not sure the Public Piggy Bank has enough coppers to pay for this!

 

[truckman060473]

yeah, if a magic wand could be waved and hey presto the electric line is up then there can be immediate savings of fuel and the GWML would be "greener" but the cost of this is beyond colossal. a similar scenario is like building 1000 wind turbines to put in only a small % of energy to the national grid but costing a huge premium for the UK's budget

 

[Dennis]

Not sure the Public Piggy Bank has enough coppers to pay for this!

Put it on NRs tab - £22.3 billion and rising but not part of the 'governments' debt.

 

[Old Timer]

Put it on NRs tab - £22.3 billion and rising but not part of the 'governments' debt.

All Network Rail loans are guaranteed by the Government.

They only reason they do not appear as Government debt because of a cynical accountancy fiddle.

Money obtained by Network Rail does carry a higher premium as a result.

 

[Metroland]

I suspect NR will borrow the money on the basis that over 40 years it will actually pay for itself and save money in the long term. Which is exactly why BR invested in electrification, apart from the sparks effect.

You have to love the negativity of people these days - I get accused of being negative, but when I read forums and newspapers I have come to realise I'm positively sunny, especially when it comes to railway matters.

Is there something in the water per chance? There's a hell of a lot of angst out there.

 

[djw1981]

Maybe because this shower and the shower before them are money grabbing shysters who won;t make decisions without getting consultant reports upon consultant reports and yet we employ as many civil servants who instead of doing impartial work upon the matter read and commission reports from consultants who by their nature will produce work which requires further consultant work to implement.

 

[Waddon]

I'm wondering if, with this electrification (apparently) going ahead, and with the rebuilding of Reading station, whether crossrail will abandon the idea of terminating at Maidenhead and run on into the more logical destination of Reading?

 

[EM2]

I'm wondering if, with this electrification (apparently) going ahead, and with the rebuilding of Reading station, whether crossrail will abandon the idea of terminating at Maidenhead and run on into the more logical destination of Reading?

There is a contigency already built in for extending to to Reading.

 

[poshbakerloo]

Does anyone with that both cross rail and the electrification of the GWML will just get 'forgotten' about?

 

[Metroland]

Crossrail won't, lots of work has started, including tunnelling and portal enabling work. GWML is more iffy, but actually I don't see what the long term choice unless we want to commit to a diesel train for another 40 years. Which won't be a good idea for all sorts of reasons.

 

[Waddon]

Crossrail won't

I wouldn't 100% bet on that - it still has the bulk of its expensive work ahead of it.

Don't forget that the Channel Tunnel project was shelved several times even after much work had got underway, and they are still arguing about funding on the East London Line, and its opening this year! The next government will have an enormous hole in it's books to deal with, not to mention the inevitable Olympics overspend, and might find it easy to shut down works 'temporarily' and blame the wasted cash on the current administration

(I hope I'm just being pessimistic, but I won't believe Crossrail or any oher scheme is definitely going ahead until I ride on the first train)

 

[robert2000]

When does the electrification of the Manchester/Liverpool-Preston-Bloackpool North start.

 

[johnb]

All Network Rail loans are guaranteed by the Government.

They only reason they do not appear as Government debt because of a cynical accountancy fiddle.

Money obtained by Network Rail does carry a higher premium as a result.

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

All money guaranteed by the government appears as government debt.

Some money borrowed by Network Rail is guaranteed by the government; some isn't.

NR pays the same rate as the government for the loans which are government-guaranteed. It pays slightly more for the loans which aren't government-guaranteed (because in theory if NR went bust these lenders wouldn't necessarily be bailed out by the government).

 

[Drsatan]

GWML is more iffy, but actually I don't see what the long term choice unless we want to commit to a diesel train for another 40 years. Which won't be a good idea for all sorts of reasons.

Yes, especially as the Hitachi Super Express train was originally concieved as a diesel; it's now being designed as a diesel/electric hybrid so it can operate off the OHL. Bear in mind that by 2017 or late oil might become unobtainable in this country for a variety of reasons (peak oil, conflict in the Middle East) so a diesel train would be a pretty bad choice.

 

[Old Timer]

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

All money guaranteed by the government appears as government debt.

Explain why PFI is not shown as debt then, and why the EU has enacted Legislation particularly directed towards making the UK Government move its "off books" (hidden) debt onto the record ?

Normal debt loans can be secured against a Company's assets and shares. In the event of a default, these can be sold to repay debt or used to generate income from dividends. NR does not have assets / shares in the normal sense.

A report by the Centre for Policy Studies think tank points out that the official Treasury figures wrongly exclude

• the cost of public sector pensions liabilities,
• the hidden costs of Labour’s flagship Private Finance Initiative contracts
• and debts incurred by Network Rail.

From the Times

Employers yesterday called upon the Government to get to grips with its ballooning debts as a new study put the true size of the public sector’s net liabilities at £2,200 billion, almost three times official figures.
The CBI said that the Government needed to cut its planned spending by £120 billion over the next six years, amid forecasts that official figures due tomorrow will show that total net borrowing has surged by another £10 billion in the past month.
The true level of Government debt is equivalent to 157 per cent of national output and nearly three times as large as the £805 billion figure reported by the Office for National Statistics

Source :
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6880228.ece

Lat year Standard & Poor’s lowered its credit outlook on the U.K. to negative, from stable, in view of the government debt crisis. A spokesman said..“We have revised the outlook on the U.K. to negative due to our view that, even assuming additional fiscal tightening, the net general government debt burden could approach 100% of GDP and remain near that level in the medium term…”
Note the use of the term “general government debt”. That is because government uses discredited debt definitions to make out that Britain has lower government debt than it really does. The financial markets (the people who make the loans) do not accept the government’s figures.

This article makes interesting reading
http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/a...w-gordon-brown-cooked-the-nations-books.thtml

 

[thelem]

All money guaranteed by the government appears as government debt.

Does that include the £50,000 I've got in an icelandic current account?

 

[chris_uk]

Does anyone knows if NR will proceed with ERTMS on GWML electrification & resignalling scheme?

 

[Dolive22]

In practice the government would always pick up the tag for anything NR borrowed. It is a company incorporated under the Companies Acts, and if it doesn't pay it's debts all it's assets are available to satisfy them. The government is always going to want trains to run, and they rely on those shiny little bits of metal that run across the country. The government will pay whoever owns the shiny metal, the pretty lights, the little concrete hills and the freehold in the land they rest on.

I think railway administraion saves it from the sort of situation where a bailiff in All Orange threatens to seize the track, but ultimately the government has to pay.