GWR 387’s to Cardiff??

[ATW158Xpress]

Just been reading the latest edition of Rail and a little news article says they be operating 387’s to Cardiff when Rugby and concerts on in the Principality Stadium when electrification is complete. Have they in reality got enough Electrostars to cover the diagrams in the Thames Valley?

 

[Dai Corner]

Just been reading the latest edition of Rail and a little news article says they be operating 387’s to Cardiff when Rugby and concerts on in the Principality Stadium when electrification is complete. Have they in reality got enough Electrostars to cover the diagrams in the Thames Valley?

If they have enough to cover the peak service in the Thames Valley I'd imagine they could spare some to go to Cardiff at off-peak times. How many traincrew sign both Cardiff and 387s?

 

[Kite159]

Makes sense in a way, 12 coach 387s to soak up the crowds on limited stop services back towards London, similar to how in the past GWR have used loco hauled "rugby extras".

 

[Tom Quinne]

No guards sign 387s nor to any drivers outside Paddington, Reading or Oxford LTV depots.

Is it worth the expense of type testing, crew training DOO agreements or otherwise to run a few extra trains on a dozen or so occasions a year ?

 

[class387]

Given that other than the door positions 387s are pretty much to the same spec as the IETs (2+2 seating, tables, plug sockets etc.), it might not be too bad of an idea for some of the shorter and busier intercity (Bristol?) services to go over to 387s after electrification and provide more capacity.

 

[Class465fan]

Looks like a fair long journey for a 387. If they are going to do a long distance service like that, wouldn't they need to upgrade the seats and put first class (As they don't have a first class area at the moment).

 

[Domh245]

No guards sign 387s nor to any drivers outside Paddington, Reading or Oxford LTV depots.

Is it worth the expense of type testing, crew training DOO agreements or otherwise to run a few extra trains on a dozen or so occasions a year ?

The electrostars are seemingly rather "go-anywhere" so clearance shouldn't be too difficult. Crewing arrangements can be 'easily' sorted by use of pilot working (ie an LTV driver drives the train whilst an HSS driver route navigates), and as for DOO arrangements, I expect that these would be limited stop services so would only need clearance for cardiff at best or a few stations at worst, and if the train is being piloted then there is a second person onboard for train protection procedures.

 

[class387]

Looks like a fair long journey for a 387. If they are going to do a long distance service like that, wouldn't they need to upgrade the seats and put first class (As they don't have a first class area at the moment).

The seats aren't any worse than those on the IETs, though first would have to be added. Perhaps they will use the ones reconfigured for HEX?

 

[Tom Quinne]

Also would there be any issues with DOO through the Severn Tunnel ?

Ideal if England are playing in Cardiff, moving 12 cars worth of passengers in one hit would bust the queues really quickly that can’t be a bad thing.

 

[JN114]

It’s not a new ambition - indeed it’s been mooted that Thames Valley Suburban Electric stock be used for Cardiff crowd busting since Electrification to S Wales was announced.

At a seating+standing capacity of well over 1000 people on a 12 car 387 it is an absolute no-brainer; and “solves” the looming problem of Agility’s contracted maintenance regime for the IETs won’t allow for much running of additional services without busting contracted maintenance performance targets.

First Class won’t be required for Crowd Busting duties.

The “HEX 12” will be ring-fenced and won’t be allowed to work other services. The 2 additional HEX-capable sets will see day to day use on LTV services; but must be available to step up to work HEX services if required.

No Guards currently sign 387s. GWR/ASLEF DOO agreement prohibits the running of DOO services outside the current “sphere” of DOO operation. It was difficult enough reaffirming that agreement to apply to 5 car IET DOO operation on services that currently operate DOO with 16x traction. Given these and other ambitions GWR have indicated post-Crossrail; the training of some Guards on 387s is likely to enable them to spread their wings. They are prefectly capable of being operated with a Guard.

The Heathrow tunnels are longer than the Severn Tunnel; and while there are evacuation-trained revenue staff on HEX (and XR ?) services to the Airport, officially the trains are DOO.

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s not a new ambition - indeed it’s been mooted that Thames Valley Suburban Electric stock be used for Cardiff crowd busting since Electrification to S Wales was announced...

Here’s the previous discussion in the forums about this, (from Jan 2016) and as you rightly say this isn’t new news at all, it came from a First submission to the Welsh Assembly about ways to cover events.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/387-319-for-south-wales-rugby-matches-only.126140/#post-2451624

 

[Envoy]

They could possibly work Chippenham > Bath > Bristol > Newport to Cardiff for crowd busting. I hope that something decent will be ordered in the not too distant future for the Cardiff to Portsmouth route. The suburban layout 165/6’s operating as a 2+3 formation is not ideal for the relatively long distance busy route that serves several major destinations. Perhaps a bi-mode?

 

[JN114]

They could possibly work Chippenham > Bath > Bristol > Newport to Cardiff for crowd busting

Not without wires. As Chippenham - Bath - Bristol - Bristol Parkway wiring is all paused indefinitely it’s probably a bit too soon to be speculating on maybe services which would require major infrastructure changes to implement. London - Swindon - Cardiff for events at the principality stadium has been a stated ambition on the other hand for a number of years now.

The suburban layout 165/6’s operating as a 2+3 formation is not ideal for the relatively long distance busy route that serves several major destinations.

Subjectively it isn’t - although if you ask the majority of Wales-Avon-Wilts commuters what they want they’ll reply “a seat”.

The 2+3 layout achieves that within the ruling 5 car length for various platforms and so forth along the route. The overcrowding is such that the choice is capacity or comfort - and given the degree of overcrowding who is going to choose comfort?

But this is way, way outwith the topic “387s planned to run Cardiff - London crowd-buster trains”...

 

[Tom Quinne]

It’s not a new ambition - indeed it’s been mooted that Thames Valley Suburban Electric stock be used for Cardiff crowd busting since Electrification to S Wales was announced.

At a seating+standing capacity of well over 1000 people on a 12 car 387 it is an absolute no-brainer; and “solves” the looming problem of Agility’s contracted maintenance regime for the IETs won’t allow for much running of additional services without busting contracted maintenance performance targets.

First Class won’t be required for Crowd Busting duties.

The “HEX 12” will be ring-fenced and won’t be allowed to work other services. The 2 additional HEX-capable sets will see day to day use on LTV services; but must be available to step up to work HEX services if required.

No Guards currently sign 387s. GWR/ASLEF DOO agreement prohibits the running of DOO services outside the current “sphere” of DOO operation. It was difficult enough reaffirming that agreement to apply to 5 car IET DOO operation on services that currently operate DOO with 16x traction. Given these and other ambitions GWR have indicated post-Crossrail; the training of some Guards on 387s is likely to enable them to spread their wings. They are prefectly capable of being operated with a Guard.

The Heathrow tunnels are longer than the Severn Tunnel; and while there are evacuation-trained revenue staff on HEX (and XR ?) services to the Airport, officially the trains are DOO.

The Heathrow tunnels are longer than Severn Tunnel, but I understand there are a weak emergency evacuation shafts, not to mention full lighting and under the countries busiest airport - unlike Severn Tunnel which is a very different kettle of fish.

 

[JN114]

The Heathrow tunnels are longer than Severn Tunnel, but I understand there are a weak emergency evacuation shafts, not to mention full lighting and under the countries busiest airport - unlike Severn Tunnel which is a very different kettle of fish.

I appreciate the tunnels are very different, but even if it were the intention to run these crowd busters DOO - and for the reasons I state in the rest of the post you quoted; it isn’t - I’m not convinced the presence of the Severn Tunnel would impact operations.

 

[Harbornite]

Given that other than the door positions 387s are pretty much to the same spec as the IETs (2+2 seating, tables, plug sockets etc.), it might not be too bad of an idea for some of the shorter and busier intercity (Bristol?) services to go over to 387s after electrification and provide more capacity.

You forgot the speed/performance differences, the 387's max speed is 15mph lower than that of IET.

 

[Esker-pades]

387s would surely mess up quite a few paths given their lower top speed. 110mph compared to 125mph plus any acceleration/braking variation. That would effectively mean 2 different paths for each service (one 387, one IET).

 

[FGW_DID]

Just been reading the latest edition of Rail and a little news article says they be operating 387’s to Cardiff when Rugby and concerts on in the Principality Stadium when electrification is complete. Have they in reality got enough Electrostars to cover the diagrams in the Thames Valley?

Yes, there are 45 units for 40 diagrams.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Looks like a fair long journey for a 387. If they are going to do a long distance service like that, wouldn't they need to upgrade the seats and put first class (As they don't have a first class area at the moment).

It's only about 40 miles longer than Brighton to Bedford, which was Electrostar operation before.

 

[class387]

You forgot the speed/performance differences, the 387's max speed is 15mph lower than that of IET.

I didn't forget it, but I didn't think it would be too significant given that 90mph Turbos run on the fasts to Reading.

 

[JonathanH]

387s would surely mess up quite a few paths given their lower top speed. 110mph compared to 125mph plus any acceleration/braking variation. That would effectively mean 2 different paths for each service (one 387, one IET).

Using 110 mph 387s is somewhat more efficient with the use of paths than hiring in 67s and Mark 2s which has been done in the past to increase capacity. This discussion is about *occasional* use of 387s when a major event is on at Cardiff to clear crowds.

 

[Doomotron]

The “HEX 12” will be ring-fenced and won’t be allowed to work other services. The 2 additional HEX-capable sets will see day to day use on LTV services; but must be available to step up to work HEX services if required.

If they have 45 trains for 40 diagrams, how are they going to make up the lost units? 379s or 360s from GA would make sense.

 

[Mintona]

It would be interesting to see how they would be crewed. Maybe Reading drivers will be learning to Cardiff.

 

[edwin_m]

It would be interesting to see how they would be crewed. Maybe Reading drivers will be learning to Cardiff.

Seems a sensible idea given that if the 387s are spare there are probably spare drivers in the commuter area too (assuming issues about rest days etc can be addressed).

Assuming sillies like the EMU restriction at Steventon can be overcome, a 110mph 379 shouldn't be too much slower than an 80x unit, especially if the 80xs run on the stopping turns. If necessary they could be overtaken anywhere east of Didcot, or Swindon, Bristol Parkway, various loops or west of the Tunnel (are the Reliefs here still being electified?).

 

[Fincra5]

The electrostars are seemingly rather "go-anywhere" so clearance shouldn't be too difficult. Crewing arrangements can be 'easily' sorted by use of pilot working (ie an LTV driver drives the train whilst an HSS driver route navigates), and as for DOO arrangements, I expect that these would be limited stop services so would only need clearance for cardiff at best or a few stations at worst, and if the train is being piloted then there is a second person onboard for train protection procedures.

Just get a Train Manager (or so) on a conversion course. Not much to do as a TM on a 387! Blue/Interlock to close the doors then 2 on the bell! I think when I was a guard my traction for 377s (similar to 387s) was a week tops!

 

[Grumpy]

Assuming sillies like the EMU restriction at Steventon can be overcome, a 110mph 379 shouldn't be too much slower than an 80x unit, especially if the 80xs run on the stopping turns.

Indeed. Given that the 350's are deemed to be suitable for the likes of Manchester-Edinburgh (a further distance) , buying 80xxx for Paddington-Bristol/South Wales was a huge waste of money when 387's could have done the job

 

[DanNCL]

387s would make great crowd movers for event days, but I don't think they're suitable for running regular services between Paddington and Cardiff, only event day extras.

Indeed. Given that the 350's are deemed to be suitable for the likes of Manchester-Edinburgh (a further distance) , buying 80xxx for Paddington-Bristol/South Wales was a huge waste of money when 387's could have done the job

The 350s aren't deemed to be suitable for Manchester - Edinburgh, that's why they're being replaced by 397s.

 

[JN114]

If they have 45 trains for 40 diagrams, how are they going to make up the lost units? 379s or 360s from GA would make sense.

A Signicantly reduced number of diagrams once Crossrail takes over the lions share of Thames Valley Suburban services.

 

[Doomotron]

A Signicantly reduced number of diagrams once Crossrail takes over the lions share of Thames Valley Suburban services.

That makes sense now. Also I guess the 769s will also help too.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed. Given that the 350's are deemed to be suitable for the likes of Manchester-Edinburgh (a further distance) , buying 80xxx for Paddington-Bristol/South Wales was a huge waste of money when 387's could have done the job

But being bi-modes they got Grayling out of a hole on cancelling Swansea... only to drop him into another one...