GWR - appalling new TVM design

Bletchleyite

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I note that GWR have come up with another new "large screen" TVM design. This one has the card slot and PIN pad about 18" off the floor.

Now I at 39 can squat down to use these, but a version of me aged 79 definitely could not.

I'm not sure what the solution here is in terms of providing for both wheelchair users and the rather more common "disabled but walking" elderly person, perhaps two card machines? But this is not an acceptable design, and if it was the only design at a given station is arguably discriminatory and thus a breach of the relevant legislation.

FWIW it's a problem that seems to occur a lot at cash machines as well, mainly avoided by the fact that I now only pay cash where no other payment option is on offer and thus only withdraw it once a month.

Any thoughts?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Where is/are the offending machine(s), please?
I've only seen them at Paddington so far. Some on the concourse and some upstairs by the taxi rank.

Unlike the fairly ubiquitous large screen design used by the Arriva TOCs (principally Chiltern and Northern), the PIN pad is below the screen rather than alongside.

Here is a picture of the useless things (not my photo):


Maybe from the picture more like 2' than 18", but still way too low down. Reaching down to take your tickets is one thing, but having to use a display at that level quite another.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the picture above is from Bristol TM, thinking on.

FWIW to me the best solution is to have the screen (normal sized - there is no need for the big screen gimmick) and PIN pad on most TVMs at a sensible level for an average adult, with obstructions above either avoided so someone taller can still use it correctly. Then provide a separate machine for children travelling alone and those in wheelchairs at the correct height for those people. Few others would choose to use it unless in a hurry, so it would generally be kept free for those users, in the same manner as an accessible toilet or even those child-height urinals.
 

jw

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Yes, that picture is from Bristol Temple Meads.

One of the most significant design flaws, which you can perhaps see in the photo, is that the principal functions are advertised in three large circles near the bottom of the screen. If you are like me, on first using these machines you'll prod the 'buy/collect tickets' circle only to eventually realise it does nothing and there's a small buy tickets button up top!

At least they use QWERTY keyboard layout for entering ticket collection codes. We're all familiar with the alphabet but most people are wired to use a keyboard layout now.
 

HSTFan57

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The TPE machines are similar, bloody nightmare for anyone over 6ft!
I'm a towering 5'7" and I find them difficult to use. The non-functional buy/collect tickets "button" is confusing, and detection of contactless cards is hit-and-miss as well. Which such large screens I don't understand why the on-screen buttons need to be so small.
 

Ianno87

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For those people who use wheelchairs, presumably the lower down position is beneficial, as they potentially cannot access a higher position at all (as opposed to tall folk, who can at least bend or kneel).
 

DaveB10780

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For those people who use wheelchairs, presumably the lower down position is beneficial, as they potentially cannot access a higher position at all (as opposed to tall folk, who can at least bend or kneel).
Not if you have a bad back and varifocal glasses. I find it hard to bend at the best of times.
 

Marton

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I am also concerned about privacy on this large screen devices.

My journey is displayed to all and sundry. It’s hard not the see when behind a user.

Where is my Right to Privacy?

I don’t believe railways are public bodies in Human Rights Act terms, although I’m sure most travellers think of them as such.
 

dlj83

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I am also concerned about privacy on this large screen devices.

My journey is displayed to all and sundry. It’s hard not the see when behind a user.



Where is my Right to Privacy?

I don’t believe railways are public bodies in Human Rights Act terms, although I’m sure most travellers think of them as such.

You could cover the screen with both hands or a sheet of paper
 

hwl

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Not if you have a bad back and varifocal glasses. I find it hard to bend at the best of times.
It isn't just rail struggling with this - There is an ongoing debate with electrical regs about the ideal height for light switches, it turns out that the number of older people who struggle to bend down is far higher than the number of wheel chair users to the extent there is now a refocusing on the former when possible after 10-15 years focusing entirely on the later. (The former happens to align with the main body of the population too)
 

Bletchleyite

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For those people who use wheelchairs, presumably the lower down position is beneficial, as they potentially cannot access a higher position at all (as opposed to tall folk, who can at least bend or kneel).
I can now, I won't be able to when I'm 80 and roughly the same height but far less bendy (people do shrink a bit as vertebrae compress, but I doubt I'll end up 5' 6" any time soon).

The problem is less the height and more the positioning, though. I can use a PIN pad at hip level if I can see the screen. So by all means mount it down there (as for example new-build houses do with the light switches), but have it stick out from the machine so the screen can be seen from any height.
 

Bletchleyite

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It isn't just rail struggling with this - There is an ongoing debate with electrical regs about the ideal height for light switches, it turns out that the number of older people who struggle to bend down is far higher than the number of wheel chair users to the extent there is now a refocusing on the former when possible after 10-15 years focusing entirely on the later. (The former happens to align with the main body of the population too)
The problem is the classic assumption that disabled=wheelchair, pretty much. Many wheelchair adaptations are good for everyone, such as lifts, ramped access, level boarding, large toilets and the likes. But some aren't, and just putting everything 2 feet off the floor without thinking about the design is precisely that problem. We are as a species getting taller, and as people get older and more infirm that means this sort of TVM design is just shoddy - or at the very least, where it is used there should be a minimum of two TVMs with at least one having the coin slot and collection flap such that they can be reached by someone 6' tall without having to bend over.

Actually in one way the standard-ish S&B TVM can be worse - the PIN pad is too low for me to use it without bending over, but too high to go all the way down and kneel on the floor to use it. But the design issue is that the screen is hidden under an "overhang" of the machine body - if it protruded out and was angled slightly upwards (as the TVM's main screen is) it would work fine. Another thought is that cash machines are often low down but have a wide flat bit to lean on while bending over - a TVM doesn't.

Improved access for those in wheelchairs is to be applauded, but it's too often at the expense of "walking disabled" who are far more numerous.

Another example of it causing issues is the modern single-door low-floor bus, which by having the wheelchair spaces at the front means someone has to walk a fair way along the bus to reach a seat, other than the ones above the wheelarches which are sometimes too high up for some people to get onto. The TfL layout of wheelchair users boarding at the centre allows two rows of seats on the nearside forward of the wheelchair space which is a better compromise (even though I understand many wheelchair users prefer to board at the front).
 
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talldave

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At 6'5" I despair with machines like these. I had a car parking experience a while back where I just had to kneel down on the ground to use the machine.
 
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I had the experience of using these machines at Paddington a few months ago. It... was pretty awful. The interface seemed really unintuitative, and once you'd figured out what you needed to click on, the touch screen was largely un-responsive. Plus, if you're quite tall, you have to bend down to pay. It's not really avoidable with the current design because you need to be able to reach the payment terminal from a wheelchair.

Overall, they're just really impractical. If bigger screens are going to become the new norm, then the TfL Rail TVM terminals are a much nicer experience by comparison.
 

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