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GWR Brighton services

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WesternLancer

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I remember when 33s and Mark 2A stock ran the service back in the 80s under routecode 89
Interesting. I only recall 33s and Mk1s - and then it going to DMUs. Interesting to know about some Mk2 usage too.
 
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WesternLancer

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Yes. Some rakes im also sure were mixed also with Mk1/2
I definitely recall using standard class Mk1 compartment stock on the journeys in the 80s (I would take it Brighton to Chichester but sometimes beyond - always seemed a much faster journey than the EMU runs for that leg), and they would have been my seating of choice so I may well have forgotten about Mk2s in the consist had I been aiming for the compartments.
 

4REP

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I definitely recall using standard class Mk1 compartment stock on the journeys in the 80s (I would take it Brighton to Chichester but sometimes beyond - always seemed a much faster journey than the EMU runs for that leg), and they would have been my seating of choice so I may well have forgotten about Mk2s in the consist had I been aiming for the compartments.
Here's one rake with a first class mark 2 vehicle in the middle
 

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WesternLancer

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Here's one rake with a first class mark 2 vehicle in the middle
Thanks - nice to see that. Interstingly that sems to have 2 guard's compartments in the rake.

So much more superior than the replacement with 2 car 155s/156s - the interiors of which and leg room etc I found so cramped by comparison when the change over occurred. Of course at the time of the change the alternative for at least part of the route was still MK1 EMUs so they provided better space.

2 or 3 years back I did trip again in a 158 to get to Southampton for a cruise (as much for old times sake to use the equivalent train as anything else). It was pretty hopeless for the luggage, and every seat was taken plus standing passengers - so it's a well used service for sure, with lots of people certainly going 'beyond the 3rd rail' (the 2 people we sat opposite for a fair bit were going Chichester to Cornwall IIRC) - but it was just too cramped / crowded, so the next time I opted for a Southern EMU.
 

Classic109E

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I thought I saw a SWR DMU running the Brighton to Great Malvern route this morning. Can anyone confirm or was it poor eyesight from another train?
 

Classic109E

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Southampton station. I was on a local train and the Gt Malvern 10.42 passed me in what looked like old SWR livery (red blue yellow)
 

JN114

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Southampton station. I was on a local train and the Gt Malvern 10.42 passed me in what looked like old SWR livery (red blue yellow)

The 1042 Southampton (Ex Brighton) to Malvern was today operated by 166207
 

swt_passenger

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Southampton station. I was on a local train and the Gt Malvern 10.42 passed me in what looked like old SWR livery (red blue yellow)
The SWR Romsey - Salisbury service left P3 just behind the Brighton leaving P4, at least according to RTT. I think the SWR train has a 10 min dwell in that hour to allow the GWR to overtake. Did you see both trains?
 

seaviewer

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In response to "What is the point of the Brighton services", I can only say that we almost always use the eastbound service when returning to the south coast, after visiting my son in Bath. The load factor is usually around 80-100% throughout.
 

sjoh

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In response to "What is the point of the Brighton services", I can only say that we almost always use the eastbound service when returning to the south coast, after visiting my son in Bath. The load factor is usually around 80-100% throughout.
What's clearer to me now than when I first posed the question is that the Brighton extensions are from what would otherwise terminate at Westbury/Weymouth, and not from the service that usually runs Cardiff-Portsmouth, which now makes a little more sense. It does however pose the further question that if there is a path available from Westbury to Brighton in the other hours, could that not be used effectively too, provided that there is the apparent demand?
 

hermit

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The westbound early evening service from Brighton is always busy with commuters returning to stops as far as Havant, being faster than any Southern service.
 

PHILIPE

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What's clearer to me now than when I first posed the question is that the Brighton extensions are from what would otherwise terminate at Westbury/Weymouth, and not from the service that usually runs Cardiff-Portsmouth, which now makes a little more sense. It does however pose the further question that if there is a path available from Westbury to Brighton in the other hours, could that not be used effectively too, provided that there is the apparent demand?

And units available. Don't forget that
 

pompeyfan

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The Netley line and the coastway are too congested. You might just about find a path on paper but making it work in reality would be cumbersome.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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In the southbound direction the GWR Brighton service pinches the path of a Southern Southampton-Brighton service which consequently has to run off pattern via Eastleigh, so if more GWR services ran then more equivalent local services would have to be diverted. In reality if a regular GWR service ran to Brighton it would be sensible to replace the Southampton-Brighton entirely to avoid duplication, as in places they run barely 5 mins apart with a similar semi-fast stopping pattern.
 
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If this were to happen all day, the way to do it would be to use 769 flex units and replace the southern Brighton to Southampton semifasts. Great for connectivity, terrible for transferring delays between Bristol and the West Coastway
 

JonathanH

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If this were to happen all day, the way to do it would be to use 769 flex units and replace the southern Brighton to Southampton semifasts. Great for connectivity, terrible for transferring delays between Bristol and the West Coastway
And probably not as quick as a 158 between Bristol and Southampton.
 

infobleep

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What makes Portsmouth a more popular destination than Brighton for GWR? Is it simply they need to terminate a train somewhere and Portsmouth has lots of space?
 

30907

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What makes Portsmouth a more popular destination than Brighton for GWR? Is it simply they need to terminate a train somewhere and Portsmouth has lots of space?
Goes back a long way - as far back as the 30s there was just the one Brighton-Cardiff (with a Portsmouth portion) but several Portsmouth-Bristol. The Brighton was withdrawn mid-60s and only reappeared briefly IIRC in the class 33 era.
For completeness, there was a period in the 70s when the surviving Portsmouth- Bristol loco-hauled trains were withdrawn and replaced by extending the almost-all-stations Hampshire DEMUs - later alternating Hampshire and WR units. That was the beginning of the revival!

That doesn't really give a reason, but Portsmouth has always been preferred.

Edit: bolded section corrected, see below.
 
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pompeyfan

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I would imagine it’s to do with military personal and the wider economy military brings
 

infobleep

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I would imagine it’s to do with military personal and the wider economy military brings
Bit like the Monday morning only 0:50 Waterloo to Portsmouth service via Guildford. Not that, that is running at the moment and I think may have been scraped regardless.
 

moley

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What makes Portsmouth a more popular destination than Brighton for GWR? Is it simply they need to terminate a train somewhere and Portsmouth has lots of space?
There is a fair flow from Portsmouth to Southampton. GWR provide the fast service each hour while SWR provide the stopper. The current franchise was anticipated to add a SWR fast service with extension west of Southampton towards Bournemouth but I doubt it will every happen now.

Leaving the GWR services running to Brighton were fundamentally an Orcats raid. It would have made more sense from Southern to take them over and cut back the additional GWR services to Southampton.

Ignoring the random Bristol - Brighton services, going back to the end of 2002, the standard hourly service pattern was:

Wessex Fast Portsmouth - Cardiff
SWT Slow Portsmouth - Southampton
Southern Semi-fast Portsmouth - Victoria
Southern Slow Portsmouth - Brighton
Southern Semi-fast Bournemouth - Victoria via Hove
SWT Basingstoke - Brighton (extended to Reading every 3rd hour).

In 2003, the SRA mandated certain congestion relief measures (amongst others) with effect from May 2003:

The 2nd stopper from Waterloo to Portsmouth was cut back to Haslemere.
The West Croydon - Guildford SWT was chopped.
The Virgin XC services to Poole and Weymouth were cut back to Bournemouth, and
The SWT Reading services were cut back to Basingstoke.
The Southern service to Victoria was cut back to Southampton.

SWT ran Wareham - Brockenhurst shuttles which became Waterloo - Poole with long layovers in December 2007.

The December 2004, SWT "Know your numbers" timetable rewrite joined the stopping services across Southampton from London to Poole and introduced the second fast Weymouth but didn't alter much else.

In December 2007, there was a Southern re-write which diverted the Southampton / Portsmouth - Victoria services via Horsham. This led to

FGW fast Portsmouth - Cardiff
SWT slow Portsmouth - Southampton
Southern semi-fast Portsmouth - Victoria via Horsham
Southern slow Portsmouth - Brighton
Southern semi-fast Bournemouth - Victoria via Horsham
Southern semi-fast Southampton - Brighton
Southern slow Portsmouth - Littlehampton
 

D7666

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G there was a period in the 70s when the Bristol-Portsmouth trains were cut back to Salisbury, connecting with the almost-all-stations Hampshire DEMUs, but thankfully that didn't last long - the two services were combined, alternating between Hampshire and WR units the whole way. That was the beginning of the revival!

The service was not "cut back" at Salisbury.

You've missed one step out.

Early 1970s there were basic SX service pattern, on the Portsmouth Salisbury Bristol route,
hourly Portsmouth Salisbury semi-slow DEMU
3 trains per day Portsmouth Bristol (and beyond) LH
irregular Salisbury Bristol semi slow DMMU

I use the term semi-slow to mean not quite all stations served, and or differing stop patterns for different individual trains west of Salisbury.

The timetable that eliminated the LH trains - 05/74 - I think - brought in standard pattern bi-hourly Portsmouth Salisbury Bristol through service that was the above Portsmouth Salisbury semi-slow DEMU extended in alternate hours through to Bristol (and not going beyond). The irregular DMMU service was withdrawn.

When introduced, this was entirely 3car DEMU west of Salisbury, but there were attachments / detachments for 6car east of there on a couple of workings.

What then happened, after a period (I think 18 months so 10/75) was the service pattern remained the same, but, now worked by two sets of WR 6car DMMU and two-three sets of SR 6car DEMU, basically the service alternated DEMU DMMU in a 4-hourly pattern within the 2-hourly timetable.

It was never broken; I might be out by one timetable in each event, but certainly it was never broken.
 

30907

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The service was not "cut back" at Salisbury.

You've missed one step out.

Early 1970s there were basic SX service pattern, on the Portsmouth Salisbury Bristol route,
hourly Portsmouth Salisbury semi-slow DEMU
3 trains per day Portsmouth Bristol (and beyond) LH
irregular Salisbury Bristol semi slow DMMU

The timetable that eliminated the LH trains - 05/74 - I think - brought in standard pattern bi-hourly Portsmouth Salisbury Bristol through service that was the above Portsmouth Salisbury semi-slow DEMU extended in alternate hours through to Bristol (and not going beyond).

What then happened, after a period (I think 18 months so 10/75) was the service pattern remained the same, but, now worked by two sets of WR 6car DMMU and two-three sets of SR 6car DEMU, basically the service alternated DEMU DMMU in a 4-hourly pattern within the 2-hourly timetable.

It was never broken; I might be out by one timetable in each event, but certainly it was never broken.
Thanks for that. I don't have timetables for the years concerned, and I had remembered the LH and the DEMU/DMMU bit but misremembered the bit between. Have corrected my post.
 

dk1

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Looking at the 1990 timetable which was only a couple of years after Sprinterisation of the South Wales - Portsmouth route with class 155s (& 156s temporarily) it shows two through services to Brighton 7 days a week. These where all attached/detatched at Fareham.
 

infobleep

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There is a fair flow from Portsmouth to Southampton. GWR provide the fast service each hour while SWR provide the stopper. The current franchise was anticipated to add a SWR fast service with extension west of Southampton towards Bournemouth but I doubt it will every happen now.

Leaving the GWR services running to Brighton were fundamentally an Orcats raid. It would have made more sense from Southern to take them over and cut back the additional GWR services to Southampton.

Ignoring the random Bristol - Brighton services, going back to the end of 2002, the standard hourly service pattern was:

Wessex Fast Portsmouth - Cardiff
SWT Slow Portsmouth - Southampton
Southern Semi-fast Portsmouth - Victoria
Southern Slow Portsmouth - Brighton
Southern Semi-fast Bournemouth - Victoria via Hove
SWT Basingstoke - Brighton (extended to Reading every 3rd hour).

In 2003, the SRA mandated certain congestion relief measures (amongst others) with effect from May 2003:

The 2nd stopper from Waterloo to Portsmouth was cut back to Haslemere.
The West Croydon - Guildford SWT was chopped.
The Virgin XC services to Poole and Weymouth were cut back to Bournemouth, and
The SWT Reading services were cut back to Basingstoke.
The Southern service to Victoria was cut back to Southampton.

SWT ran Wareham - Brockenhurst shuttles which became Waterloo - Poole with long layovers in December 2007.

The December 2004, SWT "Know your numbers" timetable rewrite joined the stopping services across Southampton from London to Poole and introduced the second fast Weymouth but didn't alter much else.

In December 2007, there was a Southern re-write which diverted the Southampton / Portsmouth - Victoria services via Horsham. This led to

FGW fast Portsmouth - Cardiff
SWT slow Portsmouth - Southampton
Southern semi-fast Portsmouth - Victoria via Horsham
Southern slow Portsmouth - Brighton
Southern semi-fast Bournemouth - Victoria via Horsham
Southern semi-fast Southampton - Brighton
Southern slow Portsmouth - Littlehampton
So would the fast SWR service if it ever ran be an ORCATS raid or can you only raid if you don't run other services to said destination?
 
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Mac2812

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I'd be shocked if this were to be pulled. Granted I've not often got it, but when I have, it has been absolutely packed
 

swt_passenger

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So would the vast SWR service if it ever ran be an ORCATS raid or can you only raid if you don't run other services to said destination?
Presumably you mean fast? Surely it cannot be an ORCATS raid if it’s run at the requirement of the DfTs franchise spec?
 
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