GWR - cancelled trains and Delay/Repay

[PhilipW]

My recent experience with GWR was on Saturday 21 April when many trains were cancelled due to driver shortage.

I was on a Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour train boarding 13:36 at Bath.

Just before Westbury the guard came on the loudspeaker and announced that the train will now be terminating at Westbury as there was no staff to take it further on. She had just received that message on the phone.
So at Westbury we all had to get off and wait for the next service 1 hour later. I reckon there were about 50 of us. GWR did offer a free drink if we wanted one from the cafe. The following train did turn up on time and we resumed our journey 1 hour later with me arriving on time at Fareham, my destination.

Being one hour late, I submitted an online Delay/Repay form to GWR. This has just been rejected for the reason that my train was only 59 mins late. Without actually saying so, it implies GWR thinks the later train arrived 1 min early at Fareham. Not sitting on the train at the time looking at the second hand on my watch I can't say exactly when it did arrive to the second. I just perceived it as being 'on time'.

Having my train cancelled at short notice mid journey, having to wait for an hour on Westbury platform and arriving at my destination approx 1 hour late, I find it amazing that GWR would wish to reject my Delay/Repay application on such a technicality. It seems like an appalling piece of poor public relations. I have written back to appeal the decision but I can't say that my hopes are too high.

I would be interested in knowing what others think. Would they side with GWR or would they, like me, consider a refund request reasonable. I can't guess as to how many of the 50 delayed will actually put in a refund request. rejecting them all will no doubt save GWR some money.

 

[Dieseldriver]

My recent experience with GWR was on Saturday 21 April when many trains were cancelled due to driver shortage.

I was on a Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour train boarding 13:36 at Bath.

Just before Westbury the guard came on the loudspeaker and announced that the train will now be terminating at Westbury as there was no staff to take it further on. She had just received that message on the phone.
So at Westbury we all had to get off and wait for the next service 1 hour later. I reckon there were about 50 of us. GWR did offer a free drink if we wanted one from the cafe. The following train did turn up on time and we resumed our journey 1 hour later with me arriving on time at Fareham, my destination.

Being one hour late, I submitted an online Delay/Repay form to GWR. This has just been rejected for the reason that my train was only 59 mins late. Without actually saying so, it implies GWR thinks the later train arrived 1 min early at Fareham. Not sitting on the train at the time looking at the second hand on my watch I can't say exactly when it did arrive to the second. I just perceived it as being 'on time'.

Having my train cancelled at short notice mid journey, having to wait for an hour on Westbury platform and arriving at my destination approx 1 hour late, I find it amazing that GWR would wish to reject my Delay/Repay application on such a technicality. It seems like an appalling piece of poor public relations. I have written back to appeal the decision but I can't say that my hopes are too high.

I would be interested in knowing what others think. Would they side with GWR or would they, like me, consider a refund request reasonable. I can't guess as to how many of the 50 delayed will actually put in a refund request. rejecting them all will no doubt save GWR some money.

I would side with you. Really not a great advert for trevelling by train...

 

[Clip]

Have a check on real time trains as an indicator of your service time

GWR do not participate in delay repay as such but their own passenger charter

 

[Silver Cobra]

I'm quite surprised that GWR have taken that stance. While they technically have the right to do so, as you say, it does seem rather anti-customer/poor public relations.

I've had experience of a similar type of delay myself. One of my first delay repay claims in 2015 was with Greater Anglia, where I was delayed at Stowmarket for an hour while travelling from Great Yarmouth to Hitchin (the service from Norwich to Stowmarket had to travel at reduced speed due to defective tracks, so missed the hourly connection at Stowmarket). When I arrived into Cambridge, I got on the first available Great Northern service, which arrived into Hitchin a minute early. As such I was only delayed by 59 minutes. I put this in my claim to GA, expecting to only get 50% of the particular portion of my ticket, but they gave me the full 100%.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you were 59 minutes late, you get 59 minutes’ worth of compensation.

All the TOCs do is run the journey through a computer and it calculates the delay and issues the correct compensation.

It’s rather annoying when you realise you missed the cut by a minute, but if it’s correct, you don’t really have any grounds to complain.

 

[PhilipW]

If you were 59 minutes late, you get 59 minutes’ worth of compensation.
All the TOCs do is run the journey through a computer and it calculates the delay and issues the correct compensation.
It’s rather annoying when you realise you missed the cut by a minute, but if it’s correct, you don’t really have any grounds to complain.

All technically true, I agree, but there is the question of whether it is good public relations, as I mentioned in my post.
Then, if this later train was on time at Southampton and Portsmouth but 1 min early at Fareham (as would be quite possible), the Southampton and Portsmouth passengers would get refunds whilst the Fareham passengers would not.

GWR cancel my train mid journey, leave me on Westbury platform for an hour, get me to my destination on a train due 60 mins after I expected to arrive and then refuse to chip out a relatively small amount (my Advance fare) in compensation. It all seems like a disastrous piece of public relations to me.

I remain puzzled as to why they would want to take such a course. Ah well, I suppose that's the way it is.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It does seem an odd technicality to apply. All I can think is that the GWR delay-repay team is probably made up of many individuals and presumably the borderline cases are judged by these individuals on an individual basis. Perhaps a different person would have made a different call. You win some, you lose some I guess.

 

[bb21]

I remain puzzled as to why they would want to take such a course. Ah well, I suppose that's the way it is.

Because there may not have been any discretionary decision-making activity involved. A simple delay compensation request may have the level of compensation calculated automatically.

Yes, if a human calculated the level of compensation you may have been allowed one equivalent to a delay of 60 minutes, but even that is not guaranteed.

Somewhere some people will miss out narrowly, unfortunately, wherever you draw the line, so it totally sucks in your position I fully agree. In my job I draw the absolute line at 29/58 minutes. Anything below that is a no unless there are compassionate grounds or other aggravating factors, so it could be argued if your train were 28 minutes late and I handled your case, you could justifiably feel a kick in the teeth. They offered complimentary refreshment and provided required levels of monetary compensation. They didn't have to do the former so I would say compared to many other cases yours is far from the worst treatment.

 

[whhistle]

All technically true, I agree, but there is the question of whether it is good public relations, as I mentioned in my post.

It's a hard one, but where is the cut off?
60 minutes is the answer.
So 59 minutes means no delay repay.

Poor relations I hear you cry?
So let's say 59 minutes will net you the compensation.
What about 58 minutes? It's only a minute off of the 59 anyway.
And while we're at it, 57 minutes should be okay too!

Where is the cut off?

I give the example of trains departing on time to airport check-in closing. It MUST close at the exact time. One minute later would lead to two minutes later, and before you know it, check-in has been open a full 3/4/5 minutes extra.

 

[PhilipW]

It's a hard one, but where is the cut off?
60 minutes is the answer. So 59 minutes means no delay repay.

Poor relations I hear you cry?
So let's say 59 minutes will net you the compensation.
What about 58 minutes? It's only a minute off of the 59 anyway.

OK, fair points, I agree. Sometimes it is just a conflict between obeying rules and applying common sense.
Perhaps indeed this particular example is rather unusual.

On the trains from Westbury perhaps we could have had an announcement.
"GWR would like to apologise to those passengers joining us from the previously cancelled service. As their journey is now an hour late we would like to remind them that they are entitled to a Delay/Repay refund if they apply. However please do be aware that if perchance this train arrives at a station one minute early, they will not get a refund. Passengers for stations further down the line need not be concerned as the train will not leave until its scheduled time so is unlikely to continue running early. Thank you for travelling with GWR and we hope you have a pleasant journey".

Slightly tongue in cheek ...... of course. But there is a bit of irony in the situation.

I'll post again if I get any feedback from GWR on my appeal.
I'm still smiling; I move on.

 

[DelW]

Where the TOC is operating a mainly clock-face timetable, it would probably help if the delay repay (or equivalent) deadline were set to either 55min (favouring the passenger) or 65min (favouring the TOC), so that it's clear whether a passenger pushed back onto the next train should or should not get the payment. As PhilipW says, otherwise it's a lottery between pax whose (next) train arrives a minute early (no payment), a minute late (gets payment), or on time (unclear).

 

[185143]

If it were just a case of the train running late, I'd say 'Tough'. But given passengers were kicked off and made to wait for the train an hour behind, that seems rather poor to massively inconvenience the passengers and then deny delay repay...

 

[SamYeager]

So when are GWR likely to move to 30/15 minutes delay repay? Will it have to wait until the winner of the next GWR franchise takes over?

 

[cactustwirly]

So when are GWR likely to move to 30/15 minutes delay repay? Will it have to wait until the winner of the next GWR franchise takes over?

They don't have a delay repay scheme, just "delay compensation" which hasn't changed for at least 15 years.

It would be the next franchise when Delay Repay is introduced.

 

[joncombe]

They don't have a delay repay scheme, just "delay compensation" which hasn't changed for at least 15 years.

It would be the next franchise when Delay Repay is introduced.

Yes and the time after which you are entitled to compensation is based on which TOC might have operated the train had it been running 15 years ago (I think they have 3 tiers, for the former Thames Trains routes, former Great Western intercity service and former Wessex trains).

 

[100andthirty]

I think a very simple rule would be that the cancellation of a train on a route with hourly trains and no alternative, quicker rail option should automatically be deemed to be a 1 hour delay.

If I was the OP, I would complain that it is unreasonable to assume that the cancelled train might have arrived precisely on time. If the next train manages to arrive at the OP's destinatio one minute early after picking up a higher than usual load, it seems reasonable to me that the cancelled train might have arrived one minute or more early too! I would add that the cancelled train would not show an arrival time at Fareham, as is didn't run, whereas the system GWR relied on probably recorded the later train's arrival time. Arrival and departure are often separated by 1 minute.

Final point, there will be tolerances on these various reporting systems, and it cannot be assumed that they are accurate to the second, or even have consistent tolerances. Moreover, they do not record the trains' wheel start or wheel stop times at stations so can never be truly accurate. They are jolly useful though but should not be absolutely relied on by people taking a pedantic view.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think a very simple rule would be that the cancellation of a train on a route with hourly trains and no alternative, quicker rail option should automatically be deemed to be a 1 hour delay.

If I was the OP, I would complain that it is unreasonable to assume that the cancelled train might have arrived precisely on time. If the next train manages to arrive at the OP's destinatio one minute early after picking up a higher than usual load, it seems reasonable to me that the cancelled train might have arrived one minute or more early too! I would add that the cancelled train would not show an arrival time at Fareham, as is didn't run, whereas the system GWR relied on probably recorded the later train's arrival time. Arrival and departure are often separated by 1 minute.

Final point, there will be tolerances on these various reporting systems, and it cannot be assumed that they are accurate to the second, or even have consistent tolerances. Moreover, they do not record the trains' wheel start or wheel stop times at stations so can never be truly accurate. They are jolly useful though but should not be absolutely relied on by people taking a pedantic view.

Indeed - I have noticed that official rail timekeeping systems don't seem to entirely accurately record station arrivals and departures, since most smaller stations' platforms are on the main running lines and so the only information available is the time the train enters the signalling block where the platform is, and the time it leaves it.

All too often I have seen 'on time' arrival figures which simply do not match with my actual experience in terms of when the train doors are released, but which would match with being automatically inserted from the time the train enters the platform's signalling block.

In such a case, it is entirely imaginable for a train to be delayed by 60 minutes but for it to enter the signalling block of the platform only 59 minutes late.

 

[quarella]

Is the following service scheduled to arrive one minute earlier or arrived early? Should the advertised arrival time of the following service be used as the base figure for compensation/delay repay and not whether a high tide and a following wind meant an early arrival.

 

[bb21]

I think a very simple rule would be that the cancellation of a train on a route with hourly trains and no alternative, quicker rail option should automatically be deemed to be a 1 hour delay.

Why would anyone want to make it more complex? The whole point about Delay Repay is it is simple to evaluate and understand. Make it more complex and you start confusing people.

Is the following service scheduled to arrive one minute earlier or arrived early? Should the advertised arrival time of the following service be used as the base figure for compensation/delay repay and not whether a high tide and a following wind meant an early arrival.

No.

Imagine if it is booked 15 minutes behind and actually arrived 75 minutes behind. Now try and tell those customers they are not eligible because the scheme is based on the booked arrival time.

If you are delayed you are delayed, if not then you are not. If you are delayed 59 minutes then you are not delayed 60 minutes (barring a very small number of journeys where the actual recorded times may be a minute out).

Indeed - I have noticed that official rail timekeeping systems don't seem to entirely accurately record station arrivals and departures, since most smaller stations' platforms are on the main running lines and so the only information available is the time the train enters the signalling block where the platform is, and the time it leaves it.

All too often I have seen 'on time' arrival figures which simply do not match with my actual experience in terms of when the train doors are released, but which would match with being automatically inserted from the time the train enters the platform's signalling block.

In such a case, it is entirely imaginable for a train to be delayed by 60 minutes but for it to enter the signalling block of the platform only 59 minutes late.

Arrival times are not door release times. Arrival times are wheel stop times.

It is feasible sometimes there may be a one-minute discrepancy due to variable driving habits and circumstances but berth offsets where used are monitored regularly and comprehensively so get adjusted accordingly.

Some fleet have onboard GPS so can offer a more accurate reading if needed. There are also other ways of looking things up, but one of these are standard national mechanisms.

Until you can fix the infrastructure to address the limitations that is the best you can do. It works both ways. Some trains actually 59 minutes late may be recorded as 60 minutes late. You win some and you lose some.

 

[mallard]

Arrival times are not for door release times. Arrival times are wheel stop times. Station interchange times take that into account.

No they absolutely do not. Unless you really believe it's possible to get accross stations like Birmingham International or Gatwick Aiport in less than 3 minutes (typical door open to door close time for a "5 minute" connection), including the time it takes to find the right platform, with a typical amount of luggage.

And then there are (London only?) stations like Ealing Broadway where the official minimum connection time is 1 minute... There's no way any time to open/close doors was taken into account when that was imagined.

The "wheel stop" time is utterly and completely irrelevant to passengers and TOCs should not be allowed to base delay calculations on it. In some cases it can take several minutes for the doors to open, if the guard happens to be selling a complex ticket or having a "discussion" with a passenger at the time of arrival. The door release time is, for all practical purposes, the arrival time and the door close time is the departure time.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Arrival times are not door release times. Arrival times are wheel stop times.

I would strongly disagree with wheel stop times being used as arrival times - in the same way that flight delays are counted by when the plane doors first open (to prevent airlines from getting out of compensation caused by boarding stairs delays after the aircraft has parked), train delays should be (and I hope they are) counted by door release times.

No passenger gives a damn about when the train comes to a stand, they care about when they can get off the train and so to them, that's the arrival time for all intents and purposes. I Iould have thought that exact arrival times (in terms of door release) for the purpose of statistics, delay compensation etc. are recorded by guards or by newer trains automatically.

 

[AlterEgo]

I Iould have thought that exact arrival times (in terms of door release) for the purpose of statistics, delay compensation etc. are recorded by guards or by newer trains automatically.

You’d think wrong then.

Airlines routinely fiddle brakes-off times as well to suit the compensation agenda.

There is no panacea to solve this, nor do I think the issue is great enough to warrant a specific and expensive technological solution.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You’d think wrong then.

Airlines routinely fiddle brakes-off times as well to suit the compensation agenda.

There is no panacea to solve this, nor do I think the issue is great enough to warrant a specific and expensive technological solution.

Airlines may fiddle their records, but unlike trains where only a few passengers might be getting off at each stop (and hence be interested in the actual arrival time for the purpose of delay compensation etc.), on flights (almost) everyone gets off at the arrival airport and so there would be a very significantly greater number of people willing to testify to the fact that the airline is lying if it came to it.

I should also note that I hope that airlines are not falsifying aircraft logbook records etc. - as a pilot, I was taught early on that any attempt at falsification of any record, no matter how seemingly minor, would be viewed extremely dimly by the Civil Aviation Authority and that any discrepancies identified could result in the immediate (and possibly permanent) suspension of your licence, not to mention possible criminal proceedings after investigation. That's not to say that pilots will never falsify records, but I would be surprised if all agreed to do it, due to the risk to them and their airline.

 

[AlterEgo]

Airlines may fiddle their records, but unlike trains where only a few passengers might be getting off at each stop (and hence be interested in the actual arrival time for the purpose of delay compensation etc.), on flights (almost) everyone gets off at the arrival airport and so there would be a very significantly greater number of people willing to testify to the fact that the airline is lying if it came to it.

Airlines don’t lie.

They just release the jetbridge/steps early or arrive on a stand before any reasonable expectation of having steps available. Happened to me quite a few times.

 

[35B]

Why would anyone want to make it more complex? The whole point about Delay Repay is it is simple to evaluate and understand. Make it more complex and you start confusing people.

Until you can fix the infrastructure to address the limitations that is the best you can do. It works both ways. Some trains actually 59 minutes late may be recorded as 60 minutes late. You win some and you lose some.

I agree with the last point, but not the offhand dismissal of the suggestion that cancellation of an hourly service be deemed to cause an hours delay. There is something especially galling about being delayed by the decision of an operator, that is only compounded when the effect of some regained time is to move you out of a refund bracket. It is also a simple rule to apply.

That doesn’t alter the fact that there is a measure of win some, lose some. I gained on Wednesday night because my train was 31 late, having expected to be 29 based on most of the journey beforehand. Other times, I’ve had the frustration of being 31 late most of a journey, then regaining 2 minutes with recovery time.

 

[Haywain]

the door close time is the departure time.

It most definitely is not. You can frequently hear, at stations across the country, announcements to the effect that train doors will be closed x amount of time prior to departure. For some long distance trains this is as much as 2 minutes.

 

[mallard]

It most definitely is not. You can frequently hear, at stations across the country, announcements to the effect that train doors will be closed x amount of time prior to departure. For some long distance trains this is as much as 2 minutes.

You misunderstand. I know that the published "depature time" is different to the time the doors close. I'm saying I believe that is pointless. As far as the passenger is concerned, how long it takes the train to start moving after the doors close is irrelevant. The last moment they can board/alight the train is the moment before the doors close, that is the only "departure time" that has any relevance for them.

 

[Haywain]

You misunderstand. I know that the published "depature time" is different to the time the doors close. I'm saying I believe that is pointless. As far as the passenger is concerned, how long it takes the train to start moving after the doors close is irrelevant. The last moment they can board/alight the train is the moment before the doors close, that is the only "departure time" that has any relevance for them.

So what should airlines publicise? They do exactly the same as railways except with substantially larger gaps between closing the doors and actually departing. The vast majority of people travelling can cope with the requirement to be at a station and, in many cases, on board the train prior to the published departure time and I expect that most are happy with the status quo.

 

[mallard]

So what should airlines publicise?

They generally have a well publicised "check-in closes at" time, which appears on your booking confirmation/tickets, etc. The railways generally don't tell you when the doors close in advance and will happily book not-realistically-possible "5 minute" connections at fairly large stations.

 

[najaB]

I should also note that I hope that airlines are not falsifying aircraft logbook records..

Door opening times aren't (ttbomk) recorded in logbooks.