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GWR change of service

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Mitchell Hurd

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Give it a rest please. As you are aware, I had a large hand in the ordering of these sets and the 9 cars were not ordered for the SW - only a few were and they were for jobs such as the Paigntons, where load 5 wouldn't do and load 10 was too much. You know why the far west got 5 cars from Plymouth outside of season and when the loads this year justify going load 9, you will see more load 9. At the moment, the overall loadings on that route are truly pathetic but some uplift is being seen and more predicted so the service and formations are being augmented on a steadily increasing basis.

As for "politically more important routes", that's utter rubbish. GWR (and the DfT) will put their resources where the majority of the revenue is but the south west has done very well for service improvements and new/refurbished stock in the last few years and that didn't happen by accident or without a lot of effort.

If you think GWR is going to put all their 9 cars onto the SW route at the expense of other routes to go load 5 on those others, forget it. Your oft stated wish isn't going to happen, no matter how many times you repeat it (in numerous threads) on here.

As you had a large hand in ordering these sets then I feel it's worth me saying thank you - I wasn't sure of these at first but certainly the 5x2 (10-car) sets are useful in particular for the trolley service as it doesn't mean one trolley negotiating 9 coaches.
 
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Clarence Yard

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I'm pretty sure it was you who stated that more services would operate full length into cornwall in july and august. This is my bug bear. Do the diagrammers seriously believe that a pad to swansea service next week deserves a 9 car more than a pad to pz? It is utterly ridiculous. I dont know how loadings can be seen as pathetic down here at present. In a socially distance context the trains I have driven and passed on lately have been busy, and the real test will be from today onwards. Social distancing on a 5 car set in cornwall on certain services will not work. And what's frustrating is there are spare sets as well as 9 car sets that could be used but aren't.

Yes, I did say that but that was pre-Covid and yes, a certain Swansea or a Bristol may be more deserving next week for a 9 car than a Penzance - I have the luxury of seeing the recorded loadings for all GWR services at the moment. But the south west services are being ramped up and would probably be more so, if we had enough drivers back.

One of the issues that is always present is if you send a 9 car unit somewhere, you have to ensure it is in the right place for it's peak working and swapping units between service groups doesn't always get them from/to where they are needed for those peak workings. As the network gets more and more crowded with trains, you might not even be able to do it - Paddington station is a good case in point, it is now much harder to do it at some times of the day.

As to the Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough calls on the main lines, there is an awful lot of revenue for GWR in those stops and those punters are not paying that kind of money to travel on the relief line services, especially on the 345's. TfL were surprised at how many people are still opting for main line services but, as a former T&C manager, I'm not!

If rail is to have a long term future, social distancing on board has to go and, after some pressure from operators (and, no doubt, the Treasury) I'm pleased the Government is now coming round to that way of thinking.
 

cactustwirly

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What makes me laugh is a few times on Twitter during the December 2019 timetable, people have complained about the 18:10ish from Slough (fast service) to London being 5 coaches when previous 9. Allocating 9 coaches just for the 12-15 minute stretch is pointless when it doesn't hurt to take the like 20-minutes longer Class 387 or Tfl Class 345 services. That's like me opting for the same Off-Peak service from Didcot to Reading and constantly being 5 coaches overcrowded when there's multiple less than half full 8-car 387's to choose from.

Who says those 345s have seats available? Especially when they're designed for mostly standing passengersd in the XR core.
 

Starmill

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If you booked a train with First Class, and you have a First Class ticket, and on the day, First Class is not provided (for example because the train is an HST or 158), you're entitled to a partial refund. I would encourage you to make a claim therefore if that happens to you and you're dissatisfied.
(and, no doubt, the Treasury) I'm pleased the Government is now coming round to that way of thinking.

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Treasury is actually part of the government? It's not like GWR (in common with all other operators) haven't tried quite hard to discourage rail travel in the explicit name of social distancing. In many ways they continue to do so.
 
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jimm

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Sigh. If you think most people are visiting oxford for there holidays this year you are rather wrong. Most of oxfords tourism comes from abroad, so none existent this year. Meanwhile, the vast majority of Brits are choosing to holiday at home, and devon and cornwall not surprisingly are number 1 destination of choice .
We were promised in july and August that more 9 cars would run to PZ so where are they?

Sigh. So yet again you are unable to produce any evidence for your apocalyptic claims.

Why would you expect this summer's rolling stock allocations would be the same as in a normal summer, when things are anything but normal? And when the official advice for the past four months has been for people to minimise their use of public transport. The Government announcement on Friday is not suddenly going to produce a return to normal passenger numbers on trains.

Rather a lot of British people take day trips and short breaks to the likes of Oxford, which is tourism just as much as spending a week or two in the South West, and there are plenty of British people visiting the Cotswolds right now.

Now I'm sorry if I'm going slightly off topic or saying similar to what's being said but personally, as much as I love a 9-car IET (anyone would), they are much better being used on largely the routes to and from the South West and London and some of the routes to and from London, Bristol and South Wales.

Maybe 1, 2 (3 at a push) 9-cars on the routes to and from London, Oxford and the North Cotswolds yes, obviously at the busiest times.

I say this because when I went to and from Oxford and Great Malvern on Saturday 1st February nearly 6 months ago, I saw many 5-cars on that line and we have to remember there's the short platforms as well so 8-car HST's would have been too long for some platforms. 5-cars are rather useful which saves potentially a last-second panic of being in the wrong part of a 9-car, especially if reverse formed.

There is very little chance of anyone ending up in the 'wrong part' of a nine-car IET at Cotswold Line stations, as almost all the platforms are now seven, or seven-and-a-bit coaches long since the platform extensions were brought into use - whereas with HSTs at the likes of Hanborough and Honeybourne the majority of coaches were off the platform.

As I have pointed out in the past, despite the lurid claims made by a certain person, in normal times something north of 70% of Cotswold Line services (and Cheltenhams come to that) are worked by five-car IETs, with the nine-car duties unsurprisingly almost all being at the busiest times of the week.
 

irish_rail

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Sigh. So yet again you are unable to produce any evidence for your apocalyptic claims.

Why would you expect this summer's rolling stock allocations would be the same as in a normal summer, when things are anything but normal? And when the official advice for the past four months has been for people to minimise their use of public transport. The Government announcement on Friday is not suddenly going to produce a return to normal passenger numbers on trains.

Rather a lot of British people take day trips and short breaks to the likes of Oxford, which is tourism just as much as spending a week or two in the South West, and there are plenty of British people visiting the Cotswolds right now.



There is very little chance of anyone ending up in the 'wrong part' of a nine-car IET at Cotswold Line stations, as almost all the platforms are now seven, or seven-and-a-bit coaches long since the platform extensions were brought into use - whereas with HSTs at the likes of Hanborough and Honeybourne the majority of coaches were off the platform.

As I have pointed out in the past, despite the lurid claims made by a certain person, in normal times something north of 70% of Cotswold Line services (and Cheltenhams come to that) are worked by five-car IETs, with the nine-car duties unsurprisingly almost all being at the busiest times of the week.
Too be fair I'm not really referring to the cotswold route which does have plenty of 5 cars. It's the south wales route that bugs me getting 9 cars all day in the present circumstance.
As you say this isn't a normal summer, due to social distancing I would argue even MORE capacity is needed to the main holiday destinations this summer. So devon and Cornwall in my view are even more in need of 9 and 10 car trains for the next few months (September is likely to be very very busy also).
 

Horizon22

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I'm pretty sure it was you who stated that more services would operate full length into cornwall in july and august. This is my bug bear. Do the diagrammers seriously believe that a pad to swansea service next week deserves a 9 car more than a pad to pz? It is utterly ridiculous. I dont know how loadings can be seen as pathetic down here at present. In a socially distance context the trains I have driven and passed on lately have been busy, and the real test will be from today onwards. Social distancing on a 5 car set in cornwall on certain services will not work. And what's frustrating is there are spare sets as well as 9 car sets that could be used but aren't.

Did the 'diagrammers' also realise that there was a global pandemic with volumes at 20% if not lower of what they usually are? I've noticed for some time you've been complaining of these apocalyptic levels of overcrowding in Cornwall. Seeing as GWR are taking loading reports from all operational crew - and in some cases the public - I suggest you give some specific feedback on particular services that are busy. I would say that services arriving at Plymouth in the mid-late afternoon appear to be the busiest, but in no way that social distancing might be broken - especially considering some are couples travelling together.
 

Rich McLean

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The main issue in Cornwall, apart from around 2 trains pre Covid which are busy with London Pax, was that many local passengers making journeys to and from Plymouth were opting for the limited stop IET services and filling them up, rather than using the local stoppers, which had plenty of spare capacity. The common theme is that these are faster as they don't stop as often, when in reality, there isn't that much difference in timings.

Probally not this year, but next year for busy services, certain problem services to London may have to be PU only until Totnes and enforced as much as practable, with local passengers having to travel on the previous or following local service. The same would apply at Plymouth on the down with a Set down only restriction (possibly SD only until Truro if required). Cornwall passengers on the rear set would still be permitted to switch sets at Plymouth. This would only effect around 2 trains in each direction per day and only for peak times of the year.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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The main issue in Cornwall, apart from around 2 trains pre Covid which are busy with London Pax, was that many local passengers making journeys to and from Plymouth were opting for the limited stop IET services and filling them up, rather than using the local stoppers, which had plenty of spare capacity. The common theme is that these are faster as they don't stop as often, when in reality, there isn't that much difference in timings.

Probally not this year, but next year for busy services, certain problem services to London may have to be PU only until Totnes and enforced as much as practable, with local passengers having to travel on the previous or following local service. The same would apply at Plymouth on the down with a Set down only restriction (possibly SD only until Truro if required). Cornwall passengers on the rear set would still be permitted to switch sets at Plymouth. This would only effect around 2 trains in each direction per day and only for peak times of the year.
Was not the point of having increased through services that local passengers would benefit from a more intensive service? So surely any such restrictions would be counterproductive unless you laid on a relief service immediately following (not so easy considering constraints from some of the long block sections).
 

Scottychoo

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Do GWR really care which trains are on which services or amount of customers or revenue as the Govt are picking up the tab for the foreseeable future?
 

gallafent

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Do GWR really care which trains are on which services or amount of customers or revenue as the Govt are picking up the tab for the foreseeable future?
You might argue that by the same token it's now more straightforward for GWR to concentrate on improving the customer experience (since if the (future) taxpayer is paying, then there is less conflict between immediate cost and best service …), as a way to maximise goodwill to bring people back on board if/when that is viable.
 

Rich McLean

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Was not the point of having increased through services that local passengers would benefit from a more intensive service? So surely any such restrictions would be counterproductive unless you laid on a relief service immediately following (not so easy considering constraints from some of the long block sections).

Do you mean the hourly Londons being hourly throughout the day to and from Cornwall?

It is now half hourly on that route, with an IET 1tp2hr most of the day apart from up in the mornings where it is hourly and down in the evening which is hourly. On normal summer weekdays, there is an extra daily diagram to and from Newquay, and on Summer Saturdays with a few exceptions, IETs are almost hourly throughout until at least Par.

If 9 coach IETs were put on Cornwall services, then the Cornish Mainline frequency would have remained hourly, and not 2tph.

The extra local services were intended to soak up the local passengers to free up capacity on the IETs for those wishing to travel beyond Plymouth.
 

Leisurefirst

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Nkw that holidays in Wales are permitted again, does anybody here know if the Saturday direct Tenby services will run at all this Summer please?
Although they are listed when booking tickets I do not want to chance them being replaced by local 2-car trains from Swansea especially right now...
 

Parallel

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Does anybody know when the direct Bristol to Brighton trains are to be reinstated? Monday - Saturday they’re only running to Westbury, and on Sunday they’re diverted to Portsmouth.
 

irish_rail

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Does anybody know when the direct Bristol to Brighton trains are to be reinstated? Monday - Saturday they’re only running to Westbury, and on Sunday they’re diverted to Portsmouth.
13th September is when the full tt should be back in operation across gwr
 

GoneSouth

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Please GWR can we have our trains to Malvern back? Wanted to go visit people over there from Gloucester or Cheltenham this afternoon.. next service had s journey time of 3 hour 05 minutes. At that pace it would be quicker to cycle if I was able!

The service has always been terrible on a Sunday but it’s just impossible to travel between neighbouring counties at the moment! It’s not much better during the week with enforced changes at Worcestershire Parkway and again at Worcester FS.

Please?
 

Scottychoo

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You need to ask the Govt, they are the ones running the show, not GWR or any other TOC for that matter. Welcome to a post Covid railway
 

GoneSouth

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You need to ask the Govt, they are the ones running the show, not GWR or any other TOC for that matter. Welcome to a post Covid railway
Sadly I think you’re probably right, those of us without cars no longer matter. I can’t see a future with anything like the level of service there was before Covid, both rail and bus. It’s looking bleak for those not able to drive.
 

Lee_Again

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In the end it wasn't a great trip and not a great advert for GWR.

The trip down to Plymouth was fine. We are two families and sat in two bays of 4 (1st Class). Nobody sat in the opposite window seats for the full journey. When we arrived at Plymouth about 100 passengers had to use the underpass to change trains. There was zero SD going on and it was an unnecessary waste of time and effort. The 4 coach HST down to Penzance had insufficient luggage space meaning there were cases everywhere. All completely predictable and avoidable.

The return journey was at least on one train. However, before we started, the train manager said we couldn't sit in a bay of 4. He asked us to sit in the window seats behind. But this put our friends in the same section as another passenger sitting in an airline style seat across the aisle. I asked why they couldn't sit in the pair directly across from us and was greeted with a rant. An of course, if they sit in the opposite window seat, they could have sat in the bay with us. So they moved to seats behind, next to the other passenger, and of course, by two or three stations, the pair of seats across from us were now filled by strangers not in our group. Again, very predicable and unnecessary. GWR - everybody sitting in a window seat doesn't work in 1st Class unless you reduce the capacity significantly. As this effectively means the singles seats (pairs and airlines) are effectively OOU, put signs up telling people.

I know it's hard for passengers and staff alike, but the journey would have been much better if the outward was direct (as booked) and we weren't forced to move on the return.

As for mask wearing...what a PITA. Not helped by a non functioning AC on a new[ish] train.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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In the end it wasn't a great trip and not a great advert for GWR.

The trip down to Plymouth was fine. We are two families and sat in two bays of 4 (1st Class). Nobody sat in the opposite window seats for the full journey. When we arrived at Plymouth about 100 passengers had to use the underpass to change trains. There was zero SD going on and it was an unnecessary waste of time and effort. The 4 coach HST down to Penzance had insufficient luggage space meaning there were cases everywhere. All completely predictable and avoidable.

The return journey was at least on one train. However, before we started, the train manager said we couldn't sit in a bay of 4. He asked us to sit in the window seats behind. But this put our friends in the same section as another passenger sitting in an airline style seat across the aisle. I asked why they couldn't sit in the pair directly across from us and was greeted with a rant. An of course, if they sit in the opposite window seat, they could have sat in the bay with us. So they moved to seats behind, next to the other passenger, and of course, by two or three stations, the pair of seats across from us were now filled by strangers not in our group. Again, very predicable and unnecessary. GWR - everybody sitting in a window seat doesn't work in 1st Class unless you reduce the capacity significantly. As this effectively means the singles seats (pairs and airlines) are effectively OOU, put signs up telling people.

I know it's hard for passengers and staff alike, but the journey would have been much better if the outward was direct (as booked) and we weren't forced to move on the return.

As for mask wearing...what a PITA. Not helped by a non functioning AC on a new[ish] train.

I love the 'PITA' :) phrase (I know what you mean) - I rarely use that for a few things.

You should complain to GWR about that rant if that was the train manager having a bit of an attitude problem. Also you should ask them why you booked a through (and First Class) trip then had to change onto a Standard Class train.

If that was me, I wouldn't be happy with that kind of experience.

That isn't what I think of GWR though, especially with the fantastic journey experiences and 5 to 6 star customer service I've had from them before the COVID-19 pandemic!

However, I suppose the good news is that the Plymouth to Penzance leg was an HST rather than replacement road transport.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Nkw that holidays in Wales are permitted again, does anybody here know if the Saturday direct Tenby services will run at all this Summer please?
Although they are listed when booking tickets I do not want to chance them being replaced by local 2-car trains from Swansea especially right now...

Not running this summer as due to COVID the crews have been unable to refresh the route
 

irish_rail

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There are some rather busy 5 car 802s in cornwall last week or so, seems crazy they are splitting at plymouth.
Also 0904 off padd today formed of just 5 throughout.
 

berneyarms

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Surely the loadings are spreading out though somewhat with the additional services running west of Plymouth?
 

irish_rail

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Surely the loadings are spreading out though somewhat with the additional services running west of Plymouth?
Trouble is most people are coming down from the east and for obvious reasons theyd rather a direct train than change at plymouth for a local one. Drivers at Plymouth asking for taxis now vice travelling from penzance due to the large numbers of passengers making social distancing impossible. Now where are all those 9 car sets? Very busy I do hope wherever they are!
 

HamworthyGoods

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Trouble is most people are coming down from the east and for obvious reasons theyd rather a direct train than change at plymouth for a local one. Drivers at Plymouth asking for taxis now vice travelling from penzance due to the large numbers of passengers making social distancing impossible. Now where are all those 9 car sets? Very busy I do hope wherever they are!

Why are the drivers from Plymouth needing to travel on the IET workings locally in Cornwall to Penzance?

Your argument doesn’t quite stack up as the implication is nobody is using the local trains so there must be no problem socially distancing on them, if you know the trains between Plymouth and Penzance originating from London are the busy ones why not just avoid them?
 

221129

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Why are the drivers from Plymouth needing to travel on the IET workings locally in Cornwall to Penzance?

Your argument doesn’t quite stack up as the implication is nobody is using the local trains so there must be no problem socially distancing on them, if you know the trains between Plymouth and Penzance originating from London are the busy ones why not just avoid them?
Because drivers dont get a choice in the trains they are diagrams to 'PASS' on.
 

Horizon22

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There are some rather busy 5 car 802s in cornwall last week or so, seems crazy they are splitting at plymouth.
Also 0904 off padd today formed of just 5 throughout.

Splitting at Plymouth has always been the plan as you know. More 9 cars would be good, but it's not quite as easy as flipping a switch and rearranging diagrams, especially when they've been moved around so much in the past month. I'm sure that was the summer plan, but circumstances have been very different from what the normal is. Of course that isn't helpful either as it might be even more (hard to know) additional SW customers than normal as people don't fly.

That 5-car that ran appears to be an ad-hoc fault, disappointing but better than a cancellation.
 

berneyarms

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Trouble is most people are coming down from the east and for obvious reasons theyd rather a direct train than change at plymouth for a local one. Drivers at Plymouth asking for taxis now vice travelling from penzance due to the large numbers of passengers making social distancing impossible. Now where are all those 9 car sets? Very busy I do hope wherever they are!

You still didn’t answer my question.

Are you saying that there is no one using the increased number of local services?
 
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