GWR change of service

[HamworthyGoods]

Because drivers dont get a choice in the trains they are diagrams to 'PASS' on.

that I am aware off, however a taxi between Plymouth and Penzance isn’t an especially quick journey, thus surprised that rather then being put in a taxi the traincrew supervisor isn’t putting them on the local service 1/2 hour behind. Which ever way taxi or local service will see a later arrival at Penzance.

 

[irish_rail]

that I am aware off, however a taxi between Plymouth and Penzance isn’t an especially quick journey, thus surprised that rather then being put in a taxi the traincrew supervisor isn’t putting them on the local service 1/2 hour behind. Which ever way taxi or local service will see a later arrival at Penzance.

Not quicker, and not all drivers doing this but there are some that are. Why should drivers be made to put their health and that of their families at risk? As another user pointed out we do not choose which trains we travel on. Trust me, I wouldn't choose to travel on a 5 car IET ex or to london in cornwall right now. But we have no choice. Hence why some are now requesting taxis.

 

[irish_rail]

Splitting at Plymouth has always been the plan as you know. More 9 cars would be good, but it's not quite as easy as flipping a switch and rearranging diagrams, especially when they've been moved around so much in the past month. I'm sure that was the summer plan, but circumstances have been very different from what the normal is. Of course that isn't helpful either as it might be even more (hard to know) additional SW customers than normal as people don't fly.

That 5-car that ran appears to be an ad-hoc fault, disappointing but better than a cancellation.

True but i feel it should not be beyond the wit of the planners to replace some of the 10s with 9s on days like today, esp when the train starts and ends its day at north pole, or could be swapped out at paddington to ensure that's where it ends its day. So trains like the 1004 and 1204 off paddington would be perfect candidates. Are we really saying that a swansea service say couldn't survive as a 5 car train on the odd day right now whilst the 9 car goes PZ.???

 

[irish_rail]

You still didn’t answer my question.

Are you saying that there is no one using the increased number of local services?

I've no idea I haven't worked one lately. What's relevant is the trains to and from London are very busy lately when they run as 5s in Cornwall. Whether the local trains are busy or not isnt really relevant.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, the Swansea trains need to be more than load 5.

We've had this discussion before and the answer hasn't changed.

 

[berneyarms]

I've no idea I haven't worked one lately. What's relevant is the trains to and from London are very busy lately when they run as 5s in Cornwall. Whether the local trains are busy or not isnt really relevant.

That’s a straw man argument I’m afraid.

Of course the loading across all the services is relevant. The loadings west of Plymouth should be spread out more than before given the uplift in frequency along the Cornish mainline.

Your argument before was that IETs wouldn’t cope due to local loadings from Plymouth going west wouldn’t be able to board train. That was despite more local Cornish mainline trains being added. Now you’re saying you’ve no idea of the bigger picture.

You are obviously only seeing one part of the picture.

You have to be able to stand back and look at the bigger picture to pass judgement as Clarence Yard has explained on numerous occasions.

I’m getting the impression that you don’t seem to want to do that.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes, the Swansea trains need to be more than load 5.

We've had this discussion before and the answer hasn't changed.

So are you really saying there are more people on a swansea 9 car than on some of the 5 cars heading into Cornwall right now? I think not. They are going off plymouth full. What are people supposed to do? Are the Swansea 9 cars all really that busy right now???

 

[irish_rail]

That’s a straw man argument I’m afraid.

Of course the loading across all the services is relevant. The loadings west of Plymouth should be spread out more than before given the uplift in frequency along the Cornish mainline.

Your argument before was that IETs wouldn’t cope due to local loadings from Plymouth going west wouldn’t be able to board train. That was despite more local Cornish mainline trains being added. Now you’re saying you’ve no idea of the bigger picture.

You are obviously only seeing one part of the picture.

You have to be able to stand back and look at the bigger picture to pass judgement as Clarence Yard has explained on numerous occasions.

I’m getting the impression that you don’t seem to want to do that.

The bigger picture is irrelevant if passengers are all choosing to travel on the direct london trains. How does local services being busy or quiet have an effect on the fact that 5 car IETs in cornwall are often full???

 

[Clarence Yard]

So are you really saying there are more people on a swansea 9 car than on some of the 5 cars heading into Cornwall right now? I think not. They are going off plymouth full. What are people supposed to do? Are the Swansea 9 cars all really that busy right now???

That's irrelevant. If the Swansea services need more than load 5, they will get load 9 or 10. Just because there may be 100+ more on a particular SW service is no justification for hacking off core business elsewhere, especially as not every through service into Cornwall is rammed, despite a full service not being operated. Some of the loadings are still very light.

I have explained before that pushing 9 or 10 cars into Cornwall has to be carefully done if you don't want to rob other services and you still think it can be done at the flick of a switch and not affect either those other services or the tortuous contract maintenance requirements, which can't be renegotiated. It's not remotely a realistic expectation.

You seem to be constantly saying that everyone who travels to the SW should get priority over others. Tough, that ain't going to happen - choices have to be made, especially in current circumstances and your favourite services have to lose out. It's that simple.

 

[Rich McLean]

At the moment to manage the loadings, some passengers from the east to Cornwall who could only get a seat in the rear set would of had to wait at Plymouth for the next local service if the front 5 cars were full under Covid capacity limit. If they have been full and standing, I stand corrected but that shouldn't be happening.

Local passengers not going to and from East of Plymouth should be strongly encouraged to avoid the through London Trains, and board the next available service or use the service before the IET. Unfortunately if Karen for example insists on boarding the IET at Truro travelling to Plymouth, then they can't really stop her.

Most passengers are indeed from the East at the moment.

 

[irish_rail]

At the moment to manage the loadings, some passengers from the east to Cornwall who could only get a seat in the rear set would of had to wait at Plymouth for the next local service if the front 5 cars were full under Covid capacity limit. If they have been full and standing, I stand corrected but that shouldn't be happening.

Local passengers not going to and from East of Plymouth should be strongly encouraged to avoid the through London Trains, and board the next available service or use the service before the IET. Unfortunately if Karen for example insists on boarding the IET at Truro travelling to Plymouth, then they can't really stop her.

Most passengers are indeed from the East at the moment.

Exactly. Just because there are some daft contracts and agreements in place doesn't make it right. Common sense should take precedent over contracts and agreements, especially in the current climate, and there is absolutely no common sense whatsoever in sending an empty 9 car to swansea whilst letting passengers stand heading to Cornwall.
I believe it's called management and it seems to be rather lacking on GWR at present if hands really are so tied that simple set swaps are unable to occur for the greater good, whatever the contracts may say.

 

[LordCreed]

True but i feel it should not be beyond the wit of the planners to replace some of the 10s with 9s on days like today, esp when the train starts and ends its day at north pole, or could be swapped out at paddington to ensure that's where it ends its day. So trains like the 1004 and 1204 off paddington would be perfect candidates. Are we really saying that a swansea service say couldn't survive as a 5 car train on the odd day right now whilst the 9 car goes PZ.???

Exactly that, the reason we don't do it is because we have no wit...

Swapping sets willy nilly like you request simply isn't possible. The 1004 or 1204 could possibly be made into 9 cars, but then what covers their back workings off Plymouth? A different service will be short formed, and sets will become unbalanced.

Having a look at the latest loadings, there is a couple of busy services in Cornwall, but it's nowhere near as bad as the situation you're making it out to be...

 

[irish_rail]

Exactly that, the reason we don't do it is because we have no wit...

Swapping sets willy nilly like you request simply isn't possible. The 1004 or 1204 could possibly be made into 9 cars, but then what covers their back workings off Plymouth? A different service will be short formed, and sets will become unbalanced.

Having a look at the latest loadings, there is a couple of busy services in Cornwall, but it's nowhere near as bad as the situation you're making it out to be...

As I said, it isnt all services but a few that desperately need to be 9s. Today being a case in point.....

 

[Horizon22]

As I said, it isnt all services but a few that desperately need to be 9s. Today being a case in point.....

Yes but as @Clarence Yard has pointed out multiple times, the length of service of these trains means the diagramming becomes rather tricky - you can't have loads of 9s down at Plymouth / Penzance many of which are required back in London at the end of the day which becomes a 10+ hour round trip.

It is not always easy to tell which exact one(s) to make a 9-car with passenger loads being rather sporadic from week to week currently. Again you also seem to not be factoring in passenger demand is different from what it would normally be (what with this unprecedented health crisis) making planning rather hard.

 

[Mintona]

The Swansea services aren’t exactly empty. The half hourly Cardiffs haven’t run for months so the remaining Swansea trains are picking up rather a lot of passengers. Cardiff trains should be back with us from mid September as I understand it.

 

[infobleep]

Apologies if the following has been answered but I don't remember. I also don't know the diagrams or even if the following is possible

If there were spare 5 car units not being used, could they be added and the service run this as 10 cars? I appreciate there will be times when 10 cars isn't needed but would that matter as long as 10 cars exists when it does. This assumes the same trains are busy

 

[Horizon22]

Apologies if the following has been answered but I don't remember. I also don't know the diagrams or even if the following is possible

If there were spare 5 car units not being used, could they be added and the service run this as 10 cars? I appreciate there will be times when 10 cars isn't needed but would that matter as long as 10 cars exists when it does. This assumes the same trains are busy

In what sense? Penzance services are either 10 cars splitting at Plymouth or 9 cars (in normal service). Irish's argument is saying that passenger demand requires a 9-car all the way through and that a 5 car from Plymouth isn't acceptable.

 

[infobleep]

In what sense? Penzance services are either 10 cars splitting at Plymouth or 9 cars (in normal service). Irish's argument is saying that passenger demand requires a 9-car all the way through and that a 5 car from Plymouth isn't acceptable.

Could they not run 10 cars to Penzance or does the infrastructure not allow 10 cars west of Plymouth?

 

[irish_rail]

Yes but as @Clarence Yard has pointed out multiple times, the length of service of these trains means the diagramming becomes rather tricky - you can't have loads of 9s down at Plymouth / Penzance many of which are required back in London at the end of the day which becomes a 10+ hour round trip.

It is not always easy to tell which exact one(s) to make a 9-car with passenger loads being rather sporadic from week to week currently. Again you also seem to not be factoring in passenger demand is different from what it would normally be (what with this unprecedented health crisis) making planning rather hard.

I have tried to make it clear i am referring to 2 particular services (on the down). The 1004 and 1204 off padd to Pz . These are consistently busy in summer and can easily justify 9 cars throughout this time of year. Indeed I sampled one of these today whilst off duty and it was full and standing as a 5 car in cornwall. My argument is these 2 trains should be 9 car throughout and effort should be made to allow this. For example a 9 car was sat presumably spare on Laira when I drove by this afternoon. I just dont buy that there is nothing there. I fear there just isnt the will from the planners.

 

[irish_rail]

Could they not run 10 cars to Penzance or does the infrastructure not allow 10 cars west of Plymouth?

Yes this is doable and used to happen frequently before december.

 

[irish_rail]

In what sense? Penzance services are either 10 cars splitting at Plymouth or 9 cars (in normal service). Irish's argument is saying that passenger demand requires a 9-car all the way through and that a 5 car from Plymouth isn't acceptable.

I think because plymouth and penzance look close on a map, people seem to forget they are 2 hours apart. Many passengers go right through as well. That's 2 hours which is the equivalent of London to cardiff. And that's on top of the 3 hours plus the poor passenger has already travelled from London. Expecting passengers to stand ESPECIALLY in the current climate on these journeys simply isnt acceptable.
GwR bend over backward to ensure the precious Reading commuters needn't stand for 22 minutes, yet dont give two hoots about customers on longer journeys.

 

[Parallel]

I’m looking forward to the Cardiff to Pompey trains going back to 5 coaches in presumably the near future. The trains have been getting noticeably busier over the last couple of weeks (I commute for work and can’t drive), today the one I got on was very full and wasn’t really possible to distance. I think a lot of the damage to the railway from COVID will impact the London commuting area. The GWR regional and local services already seem to have started recovering steadily.

 

[irish_rail]

I’m looking forward to the Cardiff to Pompey trains going back to 5 coaches in presumably the near future. The trains have been getting noticeably busier over the last couple of weeks (I commute for work and can’t drive), today the one I got on was very full and wasn’t really possible to distance. I think a lot of the damage to the railway from COVID will impact the London commuting area. The GWR regional and local services already seem to have started recovering steadily.

I agree. I think the major hit long term will be the services taking commuters relatively long distances like swindon or newbury into London in the peaks. The regional stuff may well be fine, and intercity could go either way, but the days of masses of commuters heading into London are quite possibly over.

 

[Horizon22]

I agree. I think the major hit long term will be the services taking commuters relatively long distances like swindon or newbury into London in the peaks. The regional stuff may well be fine, and intercity could go either way, but the days of masses of commuters heading into London are quite possibly over.

I think this is fair and is what data shows; regional services already mostly recovered, longer distance/inter-city is rising reasonably fast (it's imbalanced by route and being summer, W.Country services the busiest) and local London services (Hayes and such) still remain fairly busy around peak/pre-peak times. Its the commuters from Reading / Didcot / Newbury / Oxford who are staying away.

 

[irish_rail]

I think this is fair and is what data shows; regional services already mostly recovered, longer distance/inter-city is rising reasonably fast (it's imbalanced by route and being summer, W.Country services the busiest) and local London services (Hayes and such) still remain fairly busy around peak/pre-peak times. Its the commuters from Reading / Didcot / Newbury / Oxford who are staying away.

And if this trend remains then it will make a huge impact on franchises such as GWR. We may see a return to proper intercity services and less emphasis on the commuters on IETs.

 

[Horizon22]

I have tried to make it clear i am referring to 2 particular services (on the down). The 1004 and 1204 off padd to Pz . These are consistently busy in summer and can easily justify 9 cars throughout this time of year. Indeed I sampled one of these today whilst off duty and it was full and standing as a 5 car in cornwall. My argument is these 2 trains should be 9 car throughout and effort should be made to allow this. For example a 9 car was sat presumably spare on Laira when I drove by this afternoon. I just dont buy that there is nothing there. I fear there just isnt the will from the planners.

Right and if its at Laira - and as you say "presumably" no guarantee it is in service or spare - is in no way going to be able to make an morning service from Pad unless it was a 5 or 6 am departure. I'm not saying that some points aren't valid but there aren't many 9-cars to spread around.

 

[infobleep]

Right and if its at Laira - and as you say "presumably" no guarantee it is in service or spare - is in no way going to be able to make an morning service from Pad unless it was a 5 or 6 am departure. I'm not saying that some points aren't valid but there aren't many 9-cars to spread around.

Then just put two 5 car units together as they can't all be in use, as less trains after running. I appreciate staff are needed to run them but then staff are needed when the full timetable runs.

I'm not saying it is straight forward.

 

[irish_rail]

Then just put two 5 car units together as they can't all be in use, as less trains after running. I appreciate staff are needed to run them but then staff are needed when the full timetable runs.

I'm not saying it is straight forward.

Indeed a 10 car is just as good as a 9 car really except that it requires more staff, but I'd be quite happy to see the 1004 and 1204 run as 10 cars throughout.

 

[irish_rail]

Right and if its at Laira - and as you say "presumably" no guarantee it is in service or spare - is in no way going to be able to make an morning service from Pad unless it was a 5 or 6 am departure. I'm not saying that some points aren't valid but there aren't many 9-cars to spread around.

So nothing stopping it forming the 0534 off plymouth to london and then the 1004 to PZ.

 

[jimm]

I think this is fair and is what data shows; regional services already mostly recovered, longer distance/inter-city is rising reasonably fast (it's imbalanced by route and being summer, W.Country services the busiest) and local London services (Hayes and such) still remain fairly busy around peak/pre-peak times. Its the commuters from Reading / Didcot / Newbury / Oxford who are staying away.

What the GWR data shows, as was explained this morning by GWR's interim development director during the Cotswold Line Pronotion's Group online AGM is that overall traffic is currently running at around 20 per cent of the normal volumes (same goes for XC and WMR, the meeting also heard). What happens in September is going to depend heavily on whether the return to school does happen smoothly, which is clearly far from guaranteed.

It is indeed busy in the tourist areas of the South West right now - not exactly going to be a revelation in August unless we were still in full lockdown mode - but that is not the case elsewhere on GWR and what the long-term trends are going to look like is still anyone's guess.

But one thing I can predict is that it will still be the case that for large parts of the year there will be no justification whatever - based on the number of passengers travelling west of Plymouth - for all London-Penzance services to be formed of nine-car IETs past Plymouth.

Unless, of course, people think that getting rid of the recently-introduced 2/3tph frequency through Cornwall is a good idea, so lots of empty seats can be carted up and down on IETs as part of a reduced frequency timetable. As that is what would happen to balance the books on the costs of operations in Cornwall, as Clarence Yard has explained here over and over.