GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[JonathanH]

I believe they need 3 units at the depot to allow one to go out and about - the second and presumably third required in case the first fails.

How long before unit three [*] is ready? Are there any more at Burton waiting to be moved?

[*] Actually unit four of course but presumably 769943 is going back down the list.

 

[TJDevon]

What is the current situation with GWR's 769s? How many do they now have at Reading? Has any driver training started?

 

[Melancholia]

What is the current situation with GWR's 769s? How many do they now have at Reading? Has any driver training started?

946 & 930 currently at Reading TCD, not sure whether driver training has begun. One is yet to make mainline appearance under its own power.

 

[FGW_DID]

At the moment, Reading TCD only has 946 & 930 both of which are undergoing acceptance exam work. No driver training has started as of yet. The units will have to undertake a certain amount of Fault Free Running.
The last couple of days, COLAS drivers have been out route learning as it will be them carrying out the FFR.

For the record this was done with 66850 running as 0Z66 Woking Yard - Woking Yard. (RTT from Wednesday as an example);

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00615/2021-03-03/detailed

 

[spark001uk]

Was the 37 following a similar route a few weeks ago for the same purpose?

 

[Deepgreen]

At the moment, Reading TCD only has 946 & 930 both of which are undergoing acceptance exam work. No driver training has started as of yet. The units will have to undertake a certain amount of Fault Free Running.
The last couple of days, COLAS drivers have been out route learning as it will be them carrying out the FFR.

For the record this was done with 66850 running as 0Z66 Woking Yard - Woking Yard. (RTT from Wednesday as an example);

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00615/2021-03-03/detailed

That's interesting - explains the 66 running on the NDL this week. Shot at Brockham, near Dorking. The question is; how long before their route learning expires? Will a 769 ever get out onto the NDL (or anywhere else) before that period has elapsed?!

 

[FGW_DID]

Was the 37 following a similar route a few weeks ago for the same purpose?

Don’t know to be honest. Quite possibly, did it drop into Reading TCD? Apart from this week, I‘ve not been in work for a while but I can’t remember seeing any access requests from Colas for bringing the Loco onto the TCD.

That's interesting - explains the 66 running on the NDL this week. Shot at Brockham, near Dorking. The question is; how long before their route learning expires? Will a 769 ever get out onto the NDL (or anywhere else) before that period has elapsed?!

I don’t know the term of validity for the route learning (6 months?) I would like to think so, as soon as the two 769s are squared away, they should be available for their FFR.

 

[JN114]

Don’t know to be honest. Quite possibly, did it drop into Reading TCD? Apart from this week, I‘ve not been in work for a while but I can’t remember seeing any access requests from Colas for bringing the Loco onto the TCD.

I don’t know the term of validity for the route learning (6 months?) I would like to think so, as soon as the two 769s are squared away, they should be available for their FFR.

There was a “Colas LD Woking Yard” on the numbers I got off your night turn colleague the other day; so presumably one had been on. Woulda been Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

[FGW_DID]

There was a “Colas LD Woking Yard” on the numbers I got off your night turn colleague the other day; so presumably one had been on. Woulda been Tuesday or Wednesday.

Yup, that was for the Class 66, that was in the last couple of days.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yup, that was for the Class 66, that was in the last couple of days.

66850 ran the route this Tues, Weds and Thurs.

 

[MatthewRead]

So when will the GWR 769's enter service?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Interesting about Colas drivers. Might the Colas HST power cars at Reading depot be involved ?

 

[FGW_DID]

Interesting about Colas drivers. Might the Colas HST power cars at Reading depot be involved ?

There are no HST power cars at Reading TCD. The Colas drivers will be driving the 769s.

Colas drivers do bring the NMT flying banana (or the 2x67 substitute) onto the TCD but that’s purely just to refuel before stabling over at the old upper triangle sidings.

 

[800 Driver]

These trains will never enter service. Apart from the MD no one at GWR wants them. The local Union Reps have refused to approve them until a suitable air con system is fitted to the cab and they also want changes to the cab design to create more room for drivers (both of these would be impossible to deliver without huge expense) I hear that the union reps are being egged on by senior managers that also think these trains are crap and don't want them.

 

[OTRail]

These trains will never enter service. Apart from the MD no one at GWR wants them. The local Union Reps have refused to approve them until a suitable air con system is fitted to the cab and they also want changes to the cab design to create more room for drivers (both of these would be impossible to deliver without huge expense) I hear that the union reps are being egged on by senior managers that also think these trains are crap and don't want them.

The GWR units do have air conditioning fitted though, air con is only an issue with the Northern units...

 

[800 Driver]

The GWR units do have air conditioning fitted though, air con is only an issue with the Northern units...

No they have an air cooling system that isn't fit for purpose

 

[Wyrleybart]

There are no HST power cars at Reading TCD. The Colas drivers will be driving the 769s.

Colas drivers do bring the NMT flying banana (or the 2x67 substitute) onto the TCD but that’s purely just to refuel before stabling over at the old upper triangle sidings.

Apologies. I should have written Reading Triangle depot. I believe pair have been there for a few weeks.

These trains will never enter service. Apart from the MD no one at GWR wants them. The local Union Reps have refused to approve them until a suitable air con system is fitted to the cab and they also want changes to the cab design to create more room for drivers (both of these would be impossible to deliver without huge expense) I hear that the union reps are being egged on by senior managers that also think these trains are crap and don't want them.

Wow. That is a pretty bold statement. But I guess that even though Porterbrook have spent millions on them, the fact that not a single unit has ventured out of Reading depot since last August is quite illuminating. I realise they needed to wait for 769 #2 to be delivered to Reading anyway to rescue #1 if it failed, but even so we are now at the end of the first week of March, over six months on from the first arrival.

I have no doubt many people don't like them because the cabs seem cramped, but how much more cramped are they than the 387s which many suburban GWR drivers work in on a daily basis ?
Perhaps Porterbrook could have had Wabtec remove the front door, rework the cab front and reorganise the cab desk and environment, but obviously at serious cost.

Need to grab myself a bucket of popcorn and watch how GWR 769/9s service entry pans out, or doesn't.

 

[OTRail]

Apologies. I should have written Reading Triangle depot. I believe pair have been there for a few weeks.



Wow. That is a pretty bold statement. But I guess that even though Porterbrook have spent millions on them, the fact that not a single unit has ventured out of Reading depot since last August is quite illuminating. I release they needed to wait for 769 #2 to be delivered to Reading anyway to rescue #1 if it failed, but even so we are now at the end of the first week of March, over six months on from the first arrival.

I have no doubt many people don't like them because the cabs seem cramped, but how much more cramped are they than the 387s which many suburban GWR drivers work in on a daily basis ?
Perhaps Porterbrook could have had Wabtec removed the front door, rework the cab front and reorganise the cab desk and environment, buit obviously at serious cost.

Need to grab myself a bucket of popcorn and watch how GWR 769/9s service entry pans out, or doesn't.

Considering the amount of money and effort to refurbish them/train crew etc. I highly doubt they’ll be returned to Porterbrook, especially at the final hurdle to get them into service. Then again, Grand Central’s Blackpool to London service was cancelled at the last minute, proving anything’s possible at this stage...

 

[Clarence Yard]

Considering that it’s the DfT who are funding them and the DfT who decide everything these days, the views of any GWR manager are somewhat irrelevant.

The senior team at GWR (who are the Directors, btw) need them to work so they can get the Turbos westwards. There are some very vocal opponents to the 769 fleet amongst the drivers fraternity and the seat arrangement is totally unsuitable for the build of a few drivers at Reading, which is why GWR is redesigning it.

Air Con or Air Cooling is a good subject for debate, given COVID. There isn’t too much difference between the two so I’m not sure what the beef is here, apart from providing another excuse not to like them.

If Reading depot want to lose the North Downs work to Southern, they can keep on disliking the 769 idea and then eventually the DfT will lose patience.

Meanwhile, Network Rail still haven’t given GWR a SOC, which means they can’t get off Reading depot.

 

[Doomotron]

If Reading depot want to lose the North Downs work to Southern, they can keep on disliking the 769 idea and then eventually the DfT will lose patience.

But then, what trains would work on the North Downs line?

 

[Bob Price]

Redundant Voyagers from Avanti?

Anyway that is speculation and not something for this discussion.

If GWR don't want the 769's then they had better come up with a credible alternative quickly. They are in service in Wales and not far off for Northern. They have overcome a lot of issues and reliability is increasing. GWR may just have to suck it up until an alternative appears.

 

[cactustwirly]

Redundant Voyagers from Avanti?

Anyway that is speculation and not something for this discussion.

If GWR don't want the 769's then they had better come up with a credible alternative quickly. They are in service in Wales and not far off for Northern. They have overcome a lot of issues and reliability is increasing. GWR may just have to suck it up until an alternative appears.

They can always keep the 2+4s longer and have the 165s stay in Reading

 

[OTRail]

I’m confident that GWR will introduce them into service - at present, they provide the greatest flexibility for them. However I can see them being replaced once a more modern alternative becomes available...

 

[fgwrich]

The senior team at GWR (who are the Directors, btw) need them to work so they can get the Turbos westwards...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Far too many eggs placed in one basket (by both GWR & the DFT). The original cascade plan from 2015 was far too ambitious, and it's lucky that the short form HSTs were both possible and allowed. No short HSTs, increased pressure on Reading and an even tighter Turbo fleet. A fleet which still shows no sign of being touched internally either...The 769s should have been taken on once a prototype had been tested, rather than designing something based on the theories of what it could be capable in. It's also a shame that NR isn't cracking on with the electrification of the Thames Valley Branches (and Reading - Basing) - at the rate of the introduction vs GWEP, at least Basing could have been done by now and we could have had the 387s instead.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They can always keep the 2+4s longer and have the 165s stay in Reading

The 165 sets are not replacing anything - they are needed for extra services for the Bristol and Exeter areas. The 2+4 sets stay, for now.

But then, what trains would work on the North Downs line?

Southern might be tempted to suggest they would take them on - there is a school of thought (which I do not subscribe to) that the North Downs is being operated by the “wrong operator”. GWR is very protective of the North Downs - that goes back to NSE days when T&C made a real effort to improve it.

 

[43096]

The 2+4 sets stay, for now.

Hmmmm....

Southern might be tempted to suggest they would take them on - there is a school of thought (which I do not subscribe to) that the North Downs is being operated by the “wrong operator”. GWR is very protective of the North Downs - that goes back to NSE days when T&C made a real effort to improve it.

You could make an argument for any of GWR, SWR or Southern to run the North Downs.

 

[spark001uk]

You could make an argument for any of GWR, SWR or Southern to run the North Downs.

Hmm... push-pull pigs anyone??

 

[JonathanH]

You could make an argument for any of GWR, SWR or Southern to run the North Downs.

You can but you can also note that Thames & Chiltern in NSE days and Thames Trains / First Great Western / GWR have arguably done better by the route than any other operator would have done, both from a fares point of view and the service offered.

Hmm... push-pull pigs anyone??

Obviously not. Platforms too short, no suitable locomotive and many other reasons.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Far too many eggs placed in one basket (by both GWR & the DFT). The original cascade plan from 2015 was far too ambitious, and it's lucky that the short form HSTs were both possible and allowed. No short HSTs, increased pressure on Reading and an even tighter Turbo fleet. A fleet which still shows no sign of being touched internally either...The 769s should have been taken on once a prototype had been tested, rather than designing something based on the theories of what it could be capable in. It's also a shame that NR isn't cracking on with the electrification of the Thames Valley Branches (and Reading - Basing) - at the rate of the introduction vs GWEP, at least Basing could have been done by now and we could have had the 387s instead.

There was nothing wrong with the 2015 cascade plan but it relied on NR delivering on infrastructure, something that GWR (& FG, who actually did the DA2 bid) had severe doubts about but the DfT set the specification, so you dance to their tune and make sure you get your contractual protection for non delivery in the franchise agreement, something FG is very good at.

I agree the 769 should have been subjected to more rigorous prototype testing but, once again, the DfT had got themselves in a policy mess and went directly to authorising orders. If these things actually do the business and don’t slip themselves to a stand still on the North Downs, then all well and good.

I would love the electrification in the Thames Valley to recommence (as well as the North Downs getting fully juiced up) but that looks a long way off. I am more concerned, at the moment, about the DfT getting into service cuts that will take diesel sets out of the GWR franchise.

 

[Energy]

I am more concerned, at the moment, about the DfT getting into service cuts that will take diesel sets out of the GWR franchise.

With GWR being fine (ignoring short HSTs being a short term solution) pre-covid I doubt the DfT are too interested in getting the 769s into service post covid.