GWR Class 800

[samuelmorris]

Says everything you need to know about the TOCs. Frankly GWR should have grown a pair and told DfT where to go. I’ll bet the same seats will be used in the Hull and TPE 802s as well - no doubt with bleating about “Hitachi said” and “cost”.

If the government don't allow it, what are they supposed to do? "We have withdrawn our additional services to the West of England as the government did not allow us to use different seats". Doesn't explain TPE though, I admit.

 

[43096]

If the government don't allow it, what are they supposed to do? "We have withdrawn our additional services to the West of England as the government did not allow us to use different seats". Doesn't explain TPE though, I admit.

Turn it on its head: what are the Government going to do if GWR dig their heels in?

 

[fgwrich]

Apparently they didn't want it to be different because it'd be ''unfair'.

Because using metro seats on InterCity trains at all is totally fair.

I mean, how could you possibly show up a train ordered by the DFT by something better?

Oh, 707 vs 700 (first production units without Wi-fi, sockets and tables).

Says everything you need to know about the TOCs. Frankly GWR should have grown a pair and told DfT where to go. I’ll bet the same seats will be used in the Hull and TPE 802s as well - no doubt with bleating about “Hitachi said” and “cost”.

Of course, but the problem we know is with GWR being a management contract, and GWR being First Groups biggest franchise cash cow, to turn the tables back around and tell the DfT where to stick their frankly budget designs probably won’t help relations between Aberdeen and Marsham Street - which given issues elsewhere are probably already strained enough.

However it is Highley regrettable that the 802s have been made to suffer the Dfts mantra of nothing better than ours.

 

[404250]

The problems with the HST mods are nothing to do with money.

Of course they are. Throw more money at it (buildings/staff/equipment) and they'd be completed in less time.

 

[Clarence Yard]

With a DA you don't have the opportunity to "grow a pair". You either do the DfT's bidding or they find someone else to run the show or they just don't sign off anything and you are left running an inadequate plain vanilla outfit which, when it all goes wrong, you get all the blame for.

And whether it is a DA or a winning bid, you can't sign off any rolling stock deal without their say so. So the DfT always have the ultimate power and are not backwards in telling you so.

The only way you get "free enjoyment" in rolling stock provision is when you are doing it for an OA operation. Even then, when you step away from the manufacturers standard offer the costs start to go up considerably. Also Hitachi have the (justified, in my experience) reputation for being the most averse to changing their basic product offer.

People tend to think when you are a franchised TOC you have the clout to do what you like. Despite what some TOC MD's might like to think, you actually have very little. The DfT call the shots.

 

[aar0]

2x Chefs, 2x CSLs allocated to it each way today; different turn numbers too.

Oh, odd! The 0559 from Swansea was busy at the front of the 9 when I took it three Wednesdays ago. Glad to see an increase in Pullmaning

 

[59CosG95]

With a DA you don't have the opportunity to "grow a pair". You either do the DfT's bidding or they find someone else to run the show or they just don't sign off anything and you are left running an inadequate plain vanilla outfit which, when it all goes wrong, you get all the blame for.

And whether it is a DA or a winning bid, you can't sign off any rolling stock deal without their say so. So the DfT always have the ultimate power and are not backwards in telling you so.

The only way you get "free enjoyment" in rolling stock provision is when you are doing it for an OA operation. Even then, when you step away from the manufacturers standard offer the costs start to go up considerably. Also Hitachi have the (justified, in my experience) reputation for being the most averse to changing their basic product offer.

People tend to think when you are a franchised TOC you have the clout to do what you like. Despite what some TOC MD's might like to think, you actually have very little. The DfT call the shots.

This.

A thousand times this.
Honestly, if I could "like" this post on the forum I would.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The only way you get "free enjoyment" in rolling stock provision is when you are doing it for an OA operation. Even then, when you step away from the manufacturers standard offer the costs start to go up considerably. Also Hitachi have the (justified, in my experience) reputation for being the most averse to changing their basic product offer.

In which case it will be interesting to see what interior fit turns up with the FG Hull and Edinburgh OA services.

 

[Mintona]

I’m fairly sure I saw 802104 at North Pole. Not sure if it’s been reported as arriving yet.

 

[bnm]

Another snag to add to the growing list of issues with the Class 80x.

There are loading guage clearance issues on the curve at Crofton Lock on the Berks & Hants. Two IETs passing here at speed may be too close together.

 

[dp21]

With a DA you don't have the opportunity to "grow a pair". You either do the DfT's bidding or they find someone else to run the show or they just don't sign off anything and you are left running an inadequate plain vanilla outfit which, when it all goes wrong, you get all the blame for.

And whether it is a DA or a winning bid, you can't sign off any rolling stock deal without their say so. So the DfT always have the ultimate power and are not backwards in telling you so.

The only way you get "free enjoyment" in rolling stock provision is when you are doing it for an OA operation. Even then, when you step away from the manufacturers standard offer the costs start to go up considerably. Also Hitachi have the (justified, in my experience) reputation for being the most averse to changing their basic product offer.

People tend to think when you are a franchised TOC you have the clout to do what you like. Despite what some TOC MD's might like to think, you actually have very little. The DfT call the shots.

An excellent response indeed. I'd say this is something that many people don't appreciate.

 

[43096]

With a DA you don't have the opportunity to "grow a pair". You either do the DfT's bidding or they find someone else to run the show or they just don't sign off anything and you are left running an inadequate plain vanilla outfit which, when it all goes wrong, you get all the blame for.

And whether it is a DA or a winning bid, you can't sign off any rolling stock deal without their say so. So the DfT always have the ultimate power and are not backwards in telling you so.

The only way you get "free enjoyment" in rolling stock provision is when you are doing it for an OA operation. Even then, when you step away from the manufacturers standard offer the costs start to go up considerably. Also Hitachi have the (justified, in my experience) reputation for being the most averse to changing their basic product offer.

People tend to think when you are a franchised TOC you have the clout to do what you like. Despite what some TOC MD's might like to think, you actually have very little. The DfT call the shots.

GWR managed to get the IEP contract changed to include painting the 800/3s in green and putting vinyls on the 800/0s. So clearly they are capable of getting changes made.

Perhaps it is a question of style over substance and slapping GWR paint/stickers is more important than passenger comfort. Tells us everything we need to know about WorstGroup’s priorities.

 

[Clarence Yard]

GWR managed to get the IEP contract changed to include painting the 800/3s in green and putting vinyls on the 800/0s. So clearly they are capable of getting changes made.

Perhaps it is a question of style over substance and slapping GWR paint/stickers is more important than passenger comfort. Tells us everything we need to know about WorstGroup’s priorities.

Minor changes were permitted, significant ones were not. Tells us everything we need to know about the DfT's priorities.

 

[northernbelle]

Says everything you need to know about the TOCs. Frankly GWR should have grown a pair and told DfT where to go. I’ll bet the same seats will be used in the Hull and TPE 802s as well - no doubt with bleating about “Hitachi said” and “cost”.

This demonstrates a rather naive view of the industry.

Perhaps when the landlord of your rented property tells you they want to make a change to the building, one should "tell them where to go" as well

 

[43096]

This demonstrates a rather naive view of the industry.

Perhaps when the landlord of your rented property tells you they want to make a change to the building, one should "tell them where to go" as well

Naive, no. Expected, yes. Just says everything about how utterly screwed up the railway is. I really, really hope passenger numbers collapse because that might be the only way the industry will take its head out of its self-important arse and recognises that those who pay to use the service deserve better.

 

[gallafent]

Of course they are. Throw more money at it (buildings/staff/equipment) and they'd be completed in less time.

Hmm, … if hardware engineering projects are anything like software ones, then Brooks' Law might apply, and so that might well not be the case …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks's_law
“Brooks' law is an observation about software project management according to which "adding human resources to a late software project makes it later".[1][2] It was coined by Fred Brooks in his 1975 book The Mythical Man-Month. According to Brooks, there is an incremental person who, when added to a project, makes it take more, not less time. This is similar to the general law of diminishing returns in economics.
“According to Brooks himself, the law is an "outrageous oversimplification",[1] but it captures the general rule.”
[…]

 

[fgwrich]

Well, I can see where the comments relations to the engine noise are coming from. I’ve just alighted from 800035 and it wasn’t sounding very healthy at all. The engine noise was louder than usual for an 800, and I would say the engine noise level was close to being on par with a that of a healthy Voyager, adding into that the Turbo was screaming loudly and making a few knocking noises to boot. Surprisingly also running, and struggling, on Diesel mode from Reading into Paddington. Quite possibly, the noisiest 800 journey I have had so far with the engine, traction motors and turbo all noisier than they should be.

 

[samuelmorris]

Doesn't explain the knocking but could this be a unit with a GU isolated so running at full power setting throughout?

 

[fgwrich]

Im not sure I'm afraid, but I happen to pass the same unit later on screaming past so I would say it certainly has a faulty turbo of sorts!

 

[superalbs]

What is a GU?

 

[43096]

What is a GU?

“Generator Unit” I believe. Used because the DfT refuses to use the term “Diesel engine”, which is what they are.

 

[ptreanor]

Not quite, the GU is a combination of diesel engine plus traction & hotel power alternators in one module.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes, I used the term deliberately as if one is unavailable it's not just the engines that work harder on the other vehicles, but the traction motors too (which was mentioned in that post).

 

[jayah]

Never mind that plenty of the nine-car sets have yet to enter service with GWR and that the new timetables and rolling stock diagrams have yet to be implemented.

A limited number of people within GWR may know what the long-term rolling stock plan for Pullman diagrams is but what is happening in this transitional period is not necessarily a guide to anything. Unless occasional appearances by a nine-car IET on the 16.22 from Paddington to Great Malvern are meant to be a portent of the future - a 234m train calling at 45m platforms at Combe and Finstock...

The alternative proposal to ordering Class 802s for West Country services was of course to life-extend some HSTs by fitting power doors and toilet tanks.

The word fiasco might just as well be applied to the project to provide Scotrail, XC and GWR with HSTs that have undergone such modifications - mostly short HSTs at that, not 18 or 20 eight-coach formations. I can't remember the timescale for the Chiltern Mk3s to get their ends rebuilt and plug doors fitted but it can't have been any worse than the supposedly quicker method of installing the pocket doors has turned out to be.

I dread to think where GWR would now be if the HST option had been chosen for the West Country and they were somehow trying to maintain services with a ragtag selection of HSTs while others were still parked in sidings unmodified long after they were meant to have been through the workshop.

Judging by #9877 and many others, splitting 10 car trains at Plymouth was always the plan.

Unless the Pullman usurps the West of England rolling stock strategy, or Pullman is on the way out, or Pullman will be moved onto other routes and services, Pullman will be mostly 10 cars splitting at Plymouth, as Penzance is where most of the Pullman trains currently go.

 

[jayah]

A way out would be to have all ten M-F services which have 'Pullman fine dining' booked for a 9-car. The ten are: 0559 Swansea to Padd, and the 1045 Padd-Swansea. For the West Country its the 1203, 1303, 1803 and 1903 from Padd going to Penzance, Plymouth, Penzance and Plymouth (Penzance on Friday). In the up direction it is the 0505, 1000 and 1600 from Penzance and the 1255 from Plymouth. I am sure there are some of you out there have a reasonable idea of how these services load.

In terms of vehicle miles, 9 through to Penzance vs. 10 splitting at Plymouth is already <5% in favour of the latter, before accounting for additional time to perform the split, additional drivers, hosts, more cabs and kitchens to maintain etc...

Planting random 9 cars in the service will mean more idle time at Plymouth waiting for a suitable working to return on.

 

[Wychwood93]

Judging by #9877 and many others, splitting 10 car trains at Plymouth was always the plan.

Unless the Pullman usurps the West of England rolling stock strategy, or Pullman is on the way out, or Pullman will be moved onto other routes and services, Pullman will be mostly 10 cars splitting at Plymouth, as Penzance is where most of the Pullman trains currently go.

If you have a look at my post #9882 you will see that whilst the Pullman services do frequent the place only 2 of 4 M-Th actually get there (for dining) - sort of ditto on the up. The Pullman service does not extend beyond Plymouth on the down - although there would be ample time for something. Pullman crews Plymouth based? Regardless of that, I would still maintain that a 9-car on the Pullman services would, at the very least, show that GWR are interested in premium/prestige services - a bit like having the Bournemouth Belle go complete to Bournemouth and not give up before then. I could rattle into the named trains thread but have mentioned the Bournemouth Belle only twice!

 

[jayah]

If you have a look at my post #9882 you will see that whilst the Pullman services do frequent the place only 2 of 4 M-Th actually get there (for dining) - sort of ditto on the up. The Pullman service does not extend beyond Plymouth on the down - although there would be ample time for something. Pullman crews Plymouth based? Regardless of that, I would still maintain that a 9-car on the Pullman services would, at the very least, show that GWR are interested in premium/prestige services - a bit like having the Bournemouth Belle go complete to Bournemouth and not give up before then. I could rattle into the named trains thread but have mentioned the Bournemouth Belle only twice!

Regardless the train goes to Penzance and the rolling stock strategy is that Penzance is served by splitting a 10 car train. If that can really be usurped for the Pullman then it probably proves the strategy wasn't up to much to begin with.

 

[Wychwood93]

Regardless the train goes to Penzance and the rolling stock strategy is that Penzance is served by splitting a 10 car train. If that can really be usurped for the Pullman then it probably proves the strategy wasn't up to much to begin with.

I see what you say and, as appears to be the case, there is no Pullman service to/from Penzance/Plymouth, then may as well split at Plymouth - it does seem a pity in a way...… Always the future option to adjust matters if a demand appears. I do recall an up run on the Golden Hind, starting in Penzance, many years ago, and life was 'dead' until sometime before Exeter - perhaps from Plymouth with a relatively 'late' start at 7 something compared to my 05xx from Penzance.

 

[159220]

Says everything you need to know about the TOCs. Frankly GWR should have grown a pair and told DfT where to go. I’ll bet the same seats will be used in the Hull and TPE 802s as well - no doubt with bleating about “Hitachi said” and “cost”.

You seem to be an expert in seating, thus, would you care to tell the audience just exactly what seats are on the market place for 'intercity/inter-regional' layouts?

Yes ladies and gentlemen, two. The FISA Leap and Compin-Fainsa Sophia. Grammer, as far as I am aware do not have a current compliant seat (note Kiel should soon). (Yes, there are a few more seats for commuting - eg Quantum).

So it is not the TOCs or the DfT to blame. It is squarely at the seat manufactures having utterly no interest to put more designs through regulation, as the ROSCOs are happy with the Compin-Fainsa 'fits' all approach, = £££ saved.

No speculation about the TPE 802/2. They have the Compin-Fainsa Sophia, same as any Hitachi AT-300. And seeing as TPE have specified cloth lining rather than cut-pile, I suspect they shall be as firm as the DCA Design groups take on the IEP specification. I suspect Hull Trains shall also be cloth, as it is the fashion in design houses. The best seat covering, shall be on LNER where they are using a mix of loop- and cut- pile.

I suggest you re-angle your distain at the RSSB, ORR and ROSCOs as nowt to do with the TOCs. Until those outfits become more flexible to pushing for new regulation or encouraging more seat manufactures to the well know British pedantic level of regulation...all I can say is good luck!

The reality is, firm seat are here to stay. And if you are proposing to change regulation, you would be a brave gentleman/lady.

 

[43096]

You seem to be an expert in seating, thus, would you care to tell the audience just exactly what seats are on the market place for 'intercity/inter-regional' layouts?

Yes ladies and gentlemen, two. The FISA Leap and Compin-Fainsa Sophia. Grammer, as far as I am aware do not have a current compliant seat (note Kiel should soon). (Yes, there are a few more seats for commuting - eg Quantum).

So it is not the TOCs or the DfT to blame. It is squarely at the seat manufactures having utterly no interest to put more designs through regulation, as the ROSCOs are happy with the Compin-Fainsa 'fits' all approach.

No speculation about the TPE 802/2. They have the Compin-Fainsa Sophia, same as any Hitachi AT-300. And seeing as TPE have specified cloth lining rather than cut-pile, I suspect they shall be as firm as the DCA Design groups take on the IEP specification. I suspect Hull Trains shall also be cloth, as it is the fashion in design houses. The best seat covering, shall be on LNER where they are using a mix of loop- and cut- pile.

I suggest you re-angle your distain at the RSSB, ORR and ROSCOs as nowt to do with the TOCs. Until those outfits become more flexible to pushing for new regulation or encouraging more seat manufactures to the well know British pedantic level of regulation...all I can say is good luck!

The reality is, firm seat are here to stay. And if you are proposing to change regulation, you would be a brave gentleman/lady.

One of the biggest problems with the railway - it’s always someone else’s fault.