GWR Class 800

[northernbelle]

I agree.
Advocates of the new DMUs will no doubt blame all shortcomings on the department for transport, and yet as noted above other operators DO have buffets on their IETs.
Did the government REALLY say "GWR cant have a buffet, but other TOCs can have a buffet" That seems a bit improbable to me, why the different policy for different TOCs ?
Much more likely IMO is that FGW as they were called at the time said "great, we have been trying to get of buffets for years, this is the perfect opportunity" AFTER the new shorter trains had been specified without buffets, they then did a survey to show that buffets are no longer wanted. So no doubt as to what answer was required from the survey.

Yes, the government did, albeit indirectly because of the way it handled the award of the two different franchises.

I don't support the way the DfT runs the current franchising system, but you also make the assumption that what is needed on East Coast is the same as on Great Western - I don't agree that it is on anything except for the longer distance flows to the West of England. As far as the 57 IEP sets are concerned, trolley was the right choice.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I agree.
Advocates of the new DMUs will no doubt blame all shortcomings on the department for transport, and yet as noted above other operators DO have buffets on their IETs.
Did the government REALLY say "GWR cant have a buffet, but other TOCs can have a buffet" That seems a bit improbable to me, why the different policy for different TOCs ?
Much more likely IMO is that FGW as they were called at the time said "great, we have been trying to get of buffets for years, this is the perfect opportunity" AFTER the new shorter trains had been specified without buffets, they then did a survey to show that buffets are no longer wanted. So no doubt as to what answer was required from the survey.

Yes, the government really did say it because they had closed down the design for the GWR sets, even before that survey which, personally speaking, I found to be totally bogus and dishonest. It was done purely to save political face because there was no chance that the DfT IEP team would have ever have changed the spec. after closedown. Indeed, they were very dismissive about the whole exercise.

The alternative to the IEP that FG proposed before the great cartographer thought he knew better did include a buffet but the IEP trains that the DfT specified have a stonking kitchen but the trolley facilities are not brilliant so you can’t properly refill and refresh except by dragging it all the way back to the kitchen. Bonkers, especially on a 9 car.

The rules on IEP for East Coast bidders were different. I know because, as a bidder, I saw what was allowed to be changed and you could include a buffet if you wanted but you weren’t supposed to lose any seats, which was easy enough to achieve if you wanted to go there.

Can I make a plea for all the tin hat TOC conspiracy theory stuff to stop please? The DfT have micro managed their way into every facet of this contractual relationship and it is totally bizarre. Then they compound the issue by treating both operators in a different way. There’s no conspiracy here, except by the DfT, who have managed to burn a considerable amount of your and my taxes on a very expensive procurement exercise to provide a train which, from the passengers point of view, doesn’t seem to be a good enough job, so far.

 

[Geogregor]

Quick question, maybe even answered before.
When class 800/802 run in diesel mode do the diesel engines drive the wheels directly or just generators to provide power for the electric motors? I assume the latter...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quick question, maybe even answered before.
When class 800/802 run in diesel mode do the diesel engines drive the wheels directly or just generators to provide power for the electric motors? I assume the latter...

The latter - drive generators.

 

[jimm]

Yes, the government did, albeit indirectly because of the way it handled the award of the two different franchises.

I don't support the way the DfT runs the current franchising system, but you also make the assumption that what is needed on East Coast is the same as on Great Western - I don't agree that it is on anything except for the longer distance flows to the West of England. As far as the 57 IEP sets are concerned, trolley was the right choice.

What broadgage does over and over is make the assumption that express trains with lavish provision of first class seats, buffets and silver service restaurant cars that were appropriate years ago are still appropriate today, never mind the reduced journeys times, conversion of mainline stations into food courts with trains attached, etc, etc.

The East Coast buffets will probably look an awful lot like a Voyager 'shop' - not a facility that I have ever found particularly enticing, or essential to my journey - so quite why having such a thing on board is supposed to represent a critical feature of modern express trains beats me.

broadgage is also the conspiracy theorist's conspiracy theorist, so I'm afraid Clarence Yard's plea will likely fall on deaf ears.

Quick question, maybe even answered before.
When class 800/802 run in diesel mode do the diesel engines drive the wheels directly or just generators to provide power for the electric motors? I assume the latter...

See below - post 9922 from page 331.

Not quite, the GU is a combination of diesel engine plus traction & hotel power alternators in one module.

 

[jayah]

I very, very much doubt that is the case.



It may be that the only seat presently passed for 125mph is that garbage, but that does not preclude someone putting the Grammer or Kiel seats through, subject to any required modifications.

What is absolutely certain is that a seat design through which one's backside can feel the metal supports is not the only seat likely to pass, and it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that it is.

FWIW, are the regs UK specific or are they EU-wide? If the latter, it only takes a short trip to Europe to confirm that other designs of InterCity seat are available and clearly pass.

The biggest problem isn't the softness or hardness of the cushion but that you can feel the metal base through the seat. That is just poor design and possibly something that has degraded through use.

Also worth remembering that DfT are never represented here, so you are only ever hearing one side of the story.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest problem isn't the softness or hardness of the cushion but that you can feel the metal base through the seat. That is just poor design and possibly something that has degraded through use.

I completely agree. Other than that the seat doesn't *massively* differ from the Grammer E3000 used in most Desiros in terms of shape or hardness. I personally don't like the lower headrest wings, but it is not the only seat with that issue and I am quite tall so this is secondary to some extent.

Addition of a metal plate under the seat base would solve this without causing fire issues, though may I guess present crashworthiness issues.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes, the government did, albeit indirectly because of the way it handled the award of the two different franchises.

I don't support the way the DfT runs the current franchising system, but you also make the assumption that what is needed on East Coast is the same as on Great Western - I don't agree that it is on anything except for the longer distance flows to the West of England. As far as the 57 IEP sets are concerned, trolley was the right choice.

How can u say that buffets are suitable for East coast but not great Western? Paddington to Swansea at 3 hours compares to KX to Newcastle and Paddington to Devon and Cornwall compares broadly to KX to Edinburgh. The bristols and Cardiffs compare broadly to the KX to leeds services so really not sure where you are coming from here. Just because the GWR franchise also contains some local routes doesn't make the core any less intercity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can u say that buffets are suitable for East coast but not great Western? Paddington to Swansea at 3 hours compares to KX to Newcastle and Paddington to Devon and Cornwall compares broadly to KX to Edinburgh. The bristols and Cardiffs compare broadly to the KX to leeds services so really not sure where you are coming from here. Just because the GWR franchise also contains some local routes doesn't make the core any less intercity.

I'm not convinced by that argument, either. FWIW I do prefer at at seat service[1], but the railway seems incapable of ensuring a trolley service is properly resourced and consistently provided, whereas I can't now recall the last time the VTWC Shop wasn't there for me to grab a quick cup of tea.

[1] Well, I'd *really* prefer a sit-down Bistrowagen, but I recognise why with capacity constraints this isn't a good use of space on UK trains.

 

[59CosG95]

Back on the topic of delivery, 800320 is currently on its way south on 5X80 (Donny Carr-North Pole). Only 800312 left to deliver from Eastleigh AFAIK.

 

[jayah]

I'm not convinced by that argument, either. FWIW I do prefer at at seat service[1], but the railway seems incapable of ensuring a trolley service is properly resourced and consistently provided, whereas I can't now recall the last time the VTWC Shop wasn't there for me to grab a quick cup of tea.

[1] Well, I'd *really* prefer a sit-down Bistrowagen, but I recognise why with capacity constraints this isn't a good use of space on UK trains.

It's a bit like the argument about how some TOCs achieve 99.5% reliability with 11 coach trains but when 2 trains are coupled together the correct formation happens perhaps 90% of the time.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 800 I travelled on a fortnight ago was comfortable enough for the short hop from Didcot Parkway to Reading but I wouldn't have fancied going from Swansea (the origin) to Paddington (the destination) on it, not for full-fare anyway. GWR don't seem to do as many Advance Singles as other operators; maybe I just don't look very much living "oop North". I was on an Oxfordshire Day Ranger so the price was almost immaterial (pardon the pun) on this occasion.

 

[EE Andy b1]

The seats are pretty much rubbish on Class 800 (thanks DfT) for anything longer than 30 minutes as with most new rolling stock, but for an Inter City train it's disgusting! First class is laughable and the interior is pretty much rubbish, garish green bits, way to bright/harsh lighting too many cheap plastics with rattles and squeaks, the ride quality is not the best and the exterior is pretty much Javelin but longer so nothing special and the exterior doors should have been flush plug fitting.

The tech is pretty good though but not what was needed.

I feel so sorry for GWR long distance passengers.

Inter City train travel used to be enjoyable in the UK but not so much now.

Sorry for my little rant again!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 800 I travelled on a fortnight ago was comfortable enough for the short hop from Didcot Parkway to Reading but I wouldn't have fancied going from Swansea (the origin) to Paddington (the destination) on it, not for full-fare anyway. GWR don't seem to do as many Advance Singles as other operators; maybe I just don't look very much living "oop North". I was on an Oxfordshire Day Ranger so the price was almost immaterial (pardon the pun) on this occasion.

Yeah, it's my observation that GWR is not big on Advances.

 

[samuelmorris]

Well apparently people find the new GWR moquette seats more comfortable than the original moqette covered seats so there may be a tad of truth in their claims. Shrugs.

I definitely see that as a possibility - on my second 800 trip I noticed how uncomfortable the actual material on the seat was, not just the lack of padding. It reminded me of the rough plastic you see covering those extra large beanbags, or the stuff they make bouncy castles out of. An actual seat fabric covering would probably help mitigate the lack of padding somewhat.

I wonder if the problem with new express stock seating being terrible will be rectified for HS2 (assuming it ever happens after the Crossrail debacle). Might end up being more comfortable to get HS2 to Manchester and then a TPE Mk5 or 397 from there!

 

[EE Andy b1]

I wonder if the problem with new express stock seating being terrible will be rectified for HS2 (assuming it ever happens after the Crossrail debacle). Might end up being more comfortable to get HS2 to Manchester and then a TPE Mk5 or 397 from there!

HS2 seating will probably be no better if the Government/DfT have anything to do with it.

I believe Mk5a seats are not much better, we will see.

Cattle trucks is all we need.

 

[irish_rail]

Pair of 802s on the 5.29 Plymouth to Paddington left Plymouth 38 late due to a train fault? Anyone able to confirm what?? Am I right to assume it was a problem coupling them up on Laira ?

 

[gingertom]

The biggest problem isn't the softness or hardness of the cushion but that you can feel the metal base through the seat. That is just poor design and possibly something that has degraded through use.

Also worth remembering that DfT are never represented here, so you are only ever hearing one side of the story.

have said on the 385 thread, I don't think there has been a bean counters backside on one of these seats, they don't use the train for their commute so they don't give a... All down to cheapest.

 

[bastien]

Seats seats seats seats seats... Is anyone else interested in reading about the engineering side of these trains, or is that just me?

 

[EE Andy b1]

Seats seats seats seats seats... Is anyone else interested in reading about the engineering side of these trains, or is that just me?

I suppose because most people just want to get a seat that seats are a big talking point.

You can talk tech and if the Class 800s and derivatives perform then great but I much prefer the Stadler route for Bi-modes although not having seen or obviously been on one yet.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yeah, it's my observation that GWR is not big on Advances.

Nor are XC which is why I usually drive to my mum's in Plymouth. But that's for the Ticketing thread. I prefer a Pendolino to an 800, and that's early-00s tech compared to late-10s tech!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nor are XC which is why I usually drive to my mum's in Plymouth. But that's for the Ticketing thread. I prefer a Pendolino to an 800, and that's early-00s tech compared to late-10s tech!

The 800 basically has the same ambiance as the Javelin which basically has the same ambiance as a 350/1. I think all those are fine. But those s***s!

 

[EE Andy b1]

I prefer a Pendolino to an 800, and that's early-00s tech compared to late-10s tech!

I'm with you there. I am biased though but standard is too cramped.

 

[FGW_DID]

Pair of 802s on the 5.29 Plymouth to Paddington left Plymouth 38 late due to a train fault? Anyone able to confirm what?? Am I right to assume it was a problem coupling them up on Laira ?

802006/007 coupling issues on Laira.

 

[irish_rail]

802006/007 coupling issues on Laira.

Surprise surprise, thanks for confirming. Time for some extensions to 9 cars methinks

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprise surprise, thanks for confirming. Time for some extensions to 9 cars methinks

Why is this all so hard? Portion working is done all over the South East all the time without massive issues.

 

[spark001uk]

Re: Bedwyn DOO, I've just read this article in Newbury Today, and I can't believe it! Talk about misinformed!?!

 

[Jamesrob637]

I'm with you there. I am biased though but standard is too cramped.

Almost in the same way that I'll have a ten-year old Golf over a 68-reg example, though the new tax laws mean the annual VED is just as much for a 68-reg as it is for my 58-reg!

 

[samuelmorris]

Seats seats seats seats seats... Is anyone else interested in reading about the engineering side of these trains, or is that just me?

Of course, I've posted a great deal about that as have many others here. The seating debate was reopened by that propaganda piece appearing in the Telegraph.

You can talk tech and if the Class 800s and derivatives perform then great but I much prefer the Stadler route for Bi-modes although not having seen or obviously been on one yet.

It's funny, I remember when the 745s were first announced being annoyed that they'd chosen these over 'proper' intercity trains like the 800s. How times change!

 

[FGW_DID]

Why is this all so hard?....

Very good question, the principle is sound but somehow the practice / equipment is somewhat lacking!