GWR Class 800

[Mintona]

Interestingly (and for the first time in my experience), instead the usual procedure (continuing at a fair speed off the Didcot Avoiding Line, crossing from the relief to the main, continuing to accelerate, and then coasting a bit and switching from diesel to electric power at high speed at Moreton Cutting) the train instead slowed down substantially on the avoiding line, and then switched very snappily from diesel to electric mode at low speed immediately once on the relief line, before accelerating very well through the rest of the junction as it switched from the relief to the main line. It's great to see this sort of flexibility starting to happen. I wonder if it's a deliberate strategy to gain some time through superior acceleration on electric mode, or whether it was opportunistic since the train had been checked on the avoiding line in any case.

I think I can answer this query. IETs are able to change over to electric anywhere provided the speed is under 20mph. Certainly yesterday (I don’t know if it’s still there today) there was a 20mph speed restriction on the points coming off the Didcot Avoider onto the Up Relief line so the train was going considerably slower than the normal 70mph, and the driver decided it was better to raise the pantograph there to accelerate harder away in electric than would’ve been possible in diesel with the usual change then at Moreton.

 

[themiller]

It was interesting watching the TONIGHT programme last night ITV, 7:30pm. Woolmar revealed the true cost of the GWML electrification and the IEP, and it was absolutely eye watering, in the billions and way over budget. The IET 800 with its complex procurement and Agility support contract, officially makes it the most expensive Inter-City passenger train to operate in the WORLD. Put that into context, all that money being spent on these new trains (which I think are a "mediocre at best" replacement for the HST) plus a heavily delayed, now to be unfinished Electrification project and its plain to see this whole project was badly thought through, badly designed and woefully costed, concluding in poor value for money for travellers and tax payers. The buck clearly stops with the DFT forcing the IEP on the GWML and ECML. The DFT should never have got directly involved with train procurement and should have allowed the GWML and ECML operators to procure a new fleet trains they wanted, best suited to their customers and operations. Now passengers are left on the GWML with sporadic electrification and a train which is still not performing at a level you'd expect, considering its extreme price tag and is a disappointing experience (a backward step) in comfort and facilities (no buffet on GWR). Every member of on board GWR staff I have spoken to over the last 15 months, have not got a good word to say about the IET, some have also told me customer dissatisfaction (with the IET) is high, no buffet, uncomfortable seats and poor value for money in 1st Class, being the main topics of passenger feedback. In the cold light of day when you look at what the GWML,has ended up with electrification and trainwise versus the money spent, then the whole project has been a failure.

I didn't see the programme last night but a couple of things come to mind (and I realise that a lot is off-topic but here goes).
1 The original NR indicative costing was for the mainline from Airport Jct to Bristol and Cardiff but not the slow/relief lines.
2 No infrastructure work was included apart from what was necessary for planting masts and to achieve correct electrical clearances to the then current standards.
3 Trains were not included in the costings.
4 No line-speed increase was expected.
Given the scope change on this project, it's no wonder that costs have increased by an eye-watering amount. As with the WCML upgrade, I expect that a great deal of the backlog of maintenance has been lumped into the total cost. I have no inside knowledge on the high output trains but, they were designed to put in a certain size of pile which, I suspect, would have been adequate for conventional single track wiring but the design of the masts was changed to TTC which would necessitate a more robust foundation which the piling trains were unable to install.

 

[tasky]

It was interesting watching the TONIGHT programme last night ITV, 7:30pm. Woolmar revealed the true cost of the GWML electrification and the IEP, and it was absolutely eye watering, in the billions and way over budget. The IET 800 with its complex procurement and Agility support contract, officially makes it the most expensive Inter-City passenger train to operate in the WORLD. Put that into context, all that money being spent on these new trains (which I think are a "mediocre at best" replacement for the HST) plus a heavily delayed, now to be unfinished Electrification project and its plain to see this whole project was badly thought through, badly designed and woefully costed, concluding in poor value for money for travellers and tax payers. The buck clearly stops with the DFT forcing the IEP on the GWML and ECML. The DFT should never have got directly involved with train procurement and should have allowed the GWML and ECML operators to procure a new fleet trains they wanted, best suited to their customers and operations. Now passengers are left on the GWML with sporadic electrification and a train which is still not performing at a level you'd expect, considering its extreme price tag and is a disappointing experience (a backward step) in comfort and facilities (no buffet on GWR). Every member of on board GWR staff I have spoken to over the last 15 months, have not got a good word to say about the IET, some have also told me customer dissatisfaction (with the IET) is high, no buffet, uncomfortable seats and poor value for money in 1st Class, being the main topics of passenger feedback. In the cold light of day when you look at what the GWML,has ended up with electrification and trainwise versus the money spent, then the whole project has been a failure.

Unsurprising – every (attempted) upgrade programme since privatisation has been a great advert for just building new LGVs

 

[Charlie Smythe]

It was interesting watching the TONIGHT programme last night ITV, 7:30pm. Woolmar revealed the true cost of the GWML electrification and the IEP, and it was absolutely eye watering, in the billions and way over budget. The IET 800 with its complex procurement and Agility support contract, officially makes it the most expensive Inter-City passenger train to operate in the WORLD. Put that into context, all that money being spent on these new trains (which I think are a "mediocre at best" replacement for the HST) plus a heavily delayed, now to be unfinished Electrification project and its plain to see this whole project was badly thought through, badly designed and woefully costed, concluding in poor value for money for travellers and tax payers. The buck clearly stops with the DFT forcing the IEP on the GWML and ECML. The DFT should never have got directly involved with train procurement and should have allowed the GWML and ECML operators to procure a new fleet trains they wanted, best suited to their customers and operations. Now passengers are left on the GWML with sporadic electrification and a train which is still not performing at a level you'd expect, considering its extreme price tag and is a disappointing experience (a backward step) in comfort and facilities (no buffet on GWR). Every member of on board GWR staff I have spoken to over the last 15 months, have not got a good word to say about the IET, some have also told me customer dissatisfaction (with the IET) is high, no buffet, uncomfortable seats and poor value for money in 1st Class, being the main topics of passenger feedback. In the cold light of day when you look at what the GWML,has ended up with electrification and trainwise versus the money spent, then the whole project has been a failure.

I managed to miss this programme. What was the GWML electrification cost.

 

[samuelmorris]

https://www.itv.com/hub/tonight/2a6164a0001 if you wish to watch it - sign up is free.

Generally a fairly decent documentary with a few oddly specific case studies but good examples of what's currently really terrible about UK rail in general. I'm not sure if they quoted specifically the electrification cost, but referred to the GWML upgrade total cost (including the IEP) at around £10bn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the cold light of day when you look at what the GWML,has ended up with electrification and trainwise versus the money spent, then the whole project has been a failure.

In that sense I totally agree. What should have happened was an open tender to manufacturers to design and produce a 125mph bi-mode suitable for running on those lines, procured it either by a conventional lease scheme from the best bidder, or by the Government directly if preferred, and left the people who know about designing trains to design them.

We probably would have got something similar to a bi-mode Class 397, which would have been ideal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unsurprising – every (attempted) upgrade programme since privatisation has been a great advert for just building new LGVs

The WCML scheme was much more complex. Whacking up conventional 125mph wires really should not have been a balls-up, and if they can balls *that* up they could balls up the building of a "LGV Ouest" as well.

 

[samuelmorris]

The WCML scheme was much more complex. Whacking up conventional 125mph wires really should not have been a balls-up, and if they can balls *that* up they could balls up the building of a "LGV Ouest" as well.

Agreed, and not to divert this thread off course, this is why I disagree with the anti-HS2 campaigns. The 'alternative schemes' that would be done instead will be just as much of a balls-up in themselves. Big or small, NR projects seem to carry a similarly high chance of failure.

As for tendered stock, possibly, but I'm not sure how many solutions would have ended up being pitched, given 125mph bi-mode stock was nobody's forte back then. There's no evidence yet that the CAF units at TPE will be superior in terms of quality and reliabiity to the AT300s, and given the fit-out of TPE's new fleet, no indication that they would have had better seating either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for tendered stock, possibly, but I'm not sure how many solutions would have ended up being pitched, given 125mph bi-mode stock was nobody's forte back then. There's no evidence yet that the CAF units at TPE will be superior in terms of quality and reliabiity to the AT300s, and given the fit-out of TPE's new fleet, no indication that they would have had better seating either.

It may not have delivered anything better, but you can be sure it would have been cheaper. The Class 800 is a reasonable unit (bar the s***s), it was just an outrageously expensive way of ending up there.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes but the AT300 fleet could have been procured normally like the 802s were. An alternative brand wouldn't necessarily have come in much cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but the AT300 fleet could have been procured normally like the 802s were. An alternative brand wouldn't necessarily have come in much cheaper.

80x procured normally would have been cheaper than the Incredibly Expensive Procurement, as Uncle Roger puts it.

 

[jimm]

2. Seats next to a blank wall at the end of some coaches - only a very small number though so not bad. But why this is the case I don't know.

Simply because the DfT is fixated on achieving maximum seat numbers on any and every type of train.

Logic would say put luggage stacks in those areas on 800s, but this is the DfT we're talking about.

That said, I keep seeing people using the windowless seats, either to have a snooze or staring at a device with a screen the entire journey.

 

[43096]

Simply because the DfT is fixated on achieving maximum seat numbers on any and every type of train.

Logic would say put luggage stacks in those areas on 800s, but this is the DfT we're talking about.

That said, I keep seeing people using the windowless seats, either to have a snooze or staring at a device with a screen the entire journey.

What is the blank wall for - I’m assuming it is where the door pocket is for the sliding doors?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said, I keep seeing people using the windowless seats, either to have a snooze or staring at a device with a screen the entire journey.

There are only 8 of those really nasty seats per coach (the door pocket ones) - they not only have no window but are also narrower. It's a very low proportion. Though I agree that's an ideal place for luggage racks.

 

[JN114]

What is the blank wall for - I’m assuming it is where the door pocket is for the sliding doors?

Correct

 

[TractiveEffort]

Simply because the DfT is fixated on achieving maximum seat numbers on any and every type of train.

Logic would say put luggage stacks in those areas on 800s, but this is the DfT we're talking about.

That said, I keep seeing people using the windowless seats, either to have a snooze or staring at a device with a screen the entire journey.

I sit there on my 30 minute commute, it’s near the door, I know what’s out of the window and it’s dark at this time of year anyway. I could understand someone travelling an area rarely, wanting to see the view, but during commute time, many don’t get their eyes away from their phone/tablet/laptop, so the view is almost irrelevant.

 

[Thunderer]

I managed to miss this programme. What was the GWML electrification cost.

Three Billion excluding the cost of the IEP..and rising.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Three Billion excluding the cost of the IEP..and rising.

Certainly a lot then, where are they electrifying from and where are they hoping to finish?

 

[Goldfish62]

There are only 8 of those really nasty seats per coach (the door pocket ones) - they not only have no window but are also narrower. It's a very low proportion. Though I agree that's an ideal place for luggage racks.

They are also missing the armrest between seats. What is surprising is that those seats are reservable. I thought they'd be blanked out on the reservation system.

 

[Meerkat]

I prefer looking outside, but I get travel sick if I try to read whilst being able to see out the window in the background. Assuming I am not a freak of nature there may be other people needing to read/work who actively want to avoid windows.
Also is the wall warmer than windows for snoozing against?

 

[Thunderer]

Certainly a lot then, where are they electrifying from and where are they hoping to finish?

Paddington to Cardiff/Chippenham/Newbury. Newbury is complete. Paddington to Bristol Parkway complete and trains are using overhead 25Kv on this route. Cardiff to Swansea electrification cancelled by DFT. Lines to Oxford, Chippenham to Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway via Filton on hold for now.

 

[Thunderer]

Paddington to Cardiff/Chippenham/Newbury. Newbury is complete. Paddington to Bristol Parkway complete and trains are using overhead 25Kv on this route. Cardiff to Swansea electrification cancelled by DFT. Lines to Oxford, Chippenham to Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway via Filton on hold for now.

Cardiff due to be complete by end of 2019.

 

[Envoy]

Are people given seat reservations for those horrible seats with no windows?

 

[gallafent]

I think I can answer this query. IETs are able to change over to electric anywhere provided the speed is under 20mph. Certainly yesterday (I don’t know if it’s still there today) there was a 20mph speed restriction on the points coming off the Didcot Avoider onto the Up Relief line so the train was going considerably slower than the normal 70mph, and the driver decided it was better to raise the pantograph there to accelerate harder away in electric than would’ve been possible in diesel with the usual change then at Moreton.

That all makes sense, thanks for the information!

 

[tomglazed]

Are people given seat reservations for those horrible seats with no windows?

If you are lucky enough to hold reservations that are initially booked to the set type that ends up being used or able to be successfully re-mapped if necessary...? Then unfortunately yes they are reservable.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Paddington to Cardiff/Chippenham/Newbury. Newbury is complete. Paddington to Bristol Parkway complete and trains are using overhead 25Kv on this route. Cardiff to Swansea electrification cancelled by DFT. Lines to Oxford, Chippenham to Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway via Filton on hold for now.

So the London Paddinton to Plymouth/Penzance is of course at first running 25Kv but when do the engines fire up and it enter diesel mode?

 

[JN114]

So the London Paddinton to Plymouth/Penzance is of course at first running 25Kv but when do the engines fire up and it enter diesel mode?

East of Newbury Racecourse unless stopping at Newbury; in which case it is done during station duties at Newbury.

 

[shaun]

Just been in FC for the first time on an 800, was pleasantly surprised by how comfortable it actually was! Visually it didn't initially look like much, but once I sat down I realised there was actual padding and lots of space! The cushion is very nice as well. Tried both a powered and unpowered coach, equally pleasant. After 2 hours I felt it more than matched up to the HST (not tried the most recent FC refurb) and was far superior to a Pendo or Voyager . Can't say the same about Standard, those new covers even are just horrid! How could they get one thing so right and another so wrong??

One thing I did notice, the train was so slow compared to a HST between Cardiff and Bristol. Either because it was on diesel or there were speed restrictions I couldn't tell.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

East of Newbury Racecourse unless stopping at Newbury; in which case it is done during station duties at Newbury.

Ah ok.


Are there any plans to electrify any further than Newbury along that route, either to westbury or castle carry?

 

[cactustwirly]

Ah ok.


Are there any plans to electrify any further than Newbury along that route, either to westbury or castle carry?

No not in the near future