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GWR Class 800

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swt_passenger

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Are there any plans to electrify any further than Newbury along that route, either to westbury or castle carry?
Definitely not, for the foreseeable future. It would have required an additional national grid supply point near Westbury - which was ruled out at an early stage.

There have been a few discussions about this sort of issue in the GW electrification thread in the infrastructure forum.
 
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aar0

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Some very rapid - almost HST-like - arrival speeds into stations, then stopping on a sixpence next to the marker boards. A driver on top form.

There is something extremely satisfying about a train arriving ahead of its booked time and thundering into the platform, as if dying to get back up to line speed as soon as possible. The IETs (especially on electric) really give the impression of speed and haste when leaving a station.
 

-Colly405-

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They are also missing the armrest between seats. What is surprising is that those seats are reservable. I thought they'd be blanked out on the reservation system.
I hate seats where window pillars obscure the view, but I do like these seats when I need to work as there are no distractions out of the window. Just the lack of real armrest annoys me...
What gets me though is the pictogram above the seat still shows one as a window seat!!
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Thinking about it, if I was travelling from say Oxford or Didcot to Reading or London and had a booked seat with a window, if I see someone not happy that they're booked seat is a complete windowless seat then I think I'd happily swap seats - I know the route and it's a short-distance route anyway.

Those windowless seats are handy for couples who want to kiss from time to time without people at stations watching them !
 

jimm

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Ah ok.

Are there any plans to electrify any further than Newbury along that route, either to westbury or castle carry?

This thread is supposed to be about the Class 800 trains, so could we stick to them, please.

There is five years' worth of discussion of the GW electrification project in the relevant infrastructure thread. While it looks intimidating at 270+ pages, you can always use the search function to find things like posts about 'Westbury electrification', which throws up a series of mentions.

The electrification thread also includes a series of posts by 59CosG95 tracking the progress of the project throughout the area planned to be electrified, which also lists the places where work is currently postponed.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-western-electrification-progress.83452/
 

Goldfish62

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It was interesting watching the TONIGHT programme last night ITV, 7:30pm. Woolmar revealed the true cost of the GWML electrification and the IEP, and it was absolutely eye watering, in the billions and way over budget. The IET 800 with its complex procurement and Agility support contract, officially makes it the most expensive Inter-City passenger train to operate in the WORLD. Put that into context, all that money being spent on these new trains (which I think are a "mediocre at best" replacement for the HST) plus a heavily delayed, now to be unfinished Electrification project and its plain to see this whole project was badly thought through, badly designed and woefully costed, concluding in poor value for money for travellers and tax payers. The buck clearly stops with the DFT forcing the IEP on the GWML and ECML. The DFT should never have got directly involved with train procurement and should have allowed the GWML and ECML operators to procure a new fleet trains they wanted, best suited to their customers and operations. Now passengers are left on the GWML with sporadic electrification and a train which is still not performing at a level you'd expect, considering its extreme price tag and is a disappointing experience (a backward step) in comfort and facilities (no buffet on GWR). Every member of on board GWR staff I have spoken to over the last 15 months, have not got a good word to say about the IET, some have also told me customer dissatisfaction (with the IET) is high, no buffet, uncomfortable seats and poor value for money in 1st Class, being the main topics of passenger feedback. In the cold light of day when you look at what the GWML,has ended up with electrification and trainwise versus the money spent, then the whole project has been a failure.
I'm not in the least bit surprised. I've been following Roger Ford's take on the IEP since it's conception all those years ago and he said very early it would turn out to be the most expensive train in the world and most likely to be of mediocre performance at best.

I also know quite a few staff and would agree about their views. In fact the continual complaints from passengers about, as you say, the seats, poor 1st Class and lack of a buffet, are adding stress to the job of the guard. And as for the buffet staff who have to now push trolleys through cramped coaches instead, their views are somewhat unprintable!

I've also been told by one of my guard friends that a number of 1st Class season ticket holders are downgrading to Standard when renewing because of the marginal difference in comfort.

So, essentially, everything that industry experts and staff have been warning about for a long time is coming to fruition.
 

irish_rail

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Don't know if true but one of my train manager colleagues says they are making heavy losses on the catering side now. I must admit on my trips as a passenger on only one occasion have I seen the trolley.

And as for all this silly portion working that will soon become the norm on the Plymouth route, it certainly makes the union happy due to the huge increase in staff and thus membership , at Plymouth we have many extra drivers (each on 62k ) just to split join and shuttle these little 5 car sets to or from Laira . Whoever thought the portion working concept would save money is now being proved very wrong.

Similarly between ply and padd not uncommon to have a total of 7 or 8 staff on board most trains where previously there would of been 4. So if you want to know why your ticket prices keep going up, that's why!
 

HowardGWR

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...........And as for all this silly portion working that will soon become the norm on the Plymouth route, it certainly makes the union happy due to the huge increase in staff and thus membership , at Plymouth we have many extra drivers (each on 62k ) just to split join and shuttle these little 5 car sets to or from Laira . Whoever thought the portion working concept would save money is now being proved very wrong.
Similarly between ply and padd not uncommon to have a total of 7 or 8 staff on board most trains where previously there would of been 4. So if you want to know why your ticket prices keep going up, that's why!
Perhaps the reduction in NR track access costs and running costs in Cornwall outweigh this extra expense? Anyone know? It must have been all worked out, otherwise the new trains would have presumably been made 9 car .
 

samuelmorris

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Perhaps the reduction in NR track access costs and running costs in Cornwall outweigh this extra expense? Anyone know? It must have been all worked out, otherwise the new trains would have presumably been made 9 car .
There will have been operational reasons for it, but at the risk of sounding overly cynical, I think it may be a bit of a stretch to assume that what was done was actually the best strategy to implement, certainly at least where costs are concerned.
 

Clarence Yard

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Various lease and HST modification costs were the deciding factor, together with the need to preserve the Cornish half hourly proposition.

The odd extra driver really didn’t enter into the DA2 traction debate, neither did VTAC. They were relatively small beer compared to the ROSCO related costs.
 

samuelmorris

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As someone that may start semi-regularly travelling to SW Cornwall in the future, the increased service level in Cornwall is greatly appreciated and arguably, for the main railway through the county, is the sort of service level one should expect. I suppose dividing the capital cost of a 5-car unit by the 27 year finance agreement comes out at about 8 times that of a driver's salary, so anything that reduces stock utilisation at the expense of some extra staff is probably cost-effective.
 

irish_rail

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Hmm still seems the southwest intercity service to London is the poor relation in the brave new world of GWR. Surely the savings would of been better cutting coaches between Cardiff and Swansea or Oxford and malvern or swindon and Cheltenham. ....
But oh no, sorry, Mark Hopwood actually uses those trains so that would never happen. South west - out of sight and out of mind.
And yes I agree half hourly in Cornwall is an improvement from an inter regional perspective, I am just disappointed in the downgrade of the more important intercity services to London which I fear will eventually lose custom.
 

cactustwirly

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Hmm still seems the southwest intercity service to London is the poor relation in the brave new world of GWR. Surely the savings would of been better cutting coaches between Cardiff and Swansea or Oxford and malvern or swindon and Cheltenham. ....
But oh no, sorry, Mark Hopwood actually uses those trains so that would never happen. South west - out of sight and out of mind.
And yes I agree half hourly in Cornwall is an improvement from an inter regional perspective, I am just disappointed in the downgrade of the more important intercity services to London which I fear will eventually lose custom.

Because services to Swansea and Cheltenham are very busy, and warrant the full 9/10 coaches!
The Malvern services are already 5 car, apart from the busy peak time services which are 9 cars!
 

irish_rail

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Because services to Swansea and Cheltenham are very busy, and warrant the full 9/10 coaches!
The Malvern services are already 5 car, apart from the busy peak time services which are 9 cars!
Eh? Off peak Swansea and Cheltenham are dead between Cardiff and Swansea and Swindon and Cheltenham. Fact.
 

Kite159

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I sit there on my 30 minute commute, it’s near the door, I know what’s out of the window and it’s dark at this time of year anyway. I could understand someone travelling an area rarely, wanting to see the view, but during commute time, many don’t get their eyes away from their phone/tablet/laptop, so the view is almost irrelevant.

Some folk might actually aim for those windowless seats so they can do work on tablet/laptop with the reduced risk of a low sun shining on the screen
 

jimm

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I'm not in the least bit surprised. I've been following Roger Ford's take on the IEP since it's conception all those years ago and he said very early it would turn out to be the most expensive train in the world and most likely to be of mediocre performance at best.
So, essentially, everything that industry experts and staff have been warning about for a long time is coming to fruition.

The mediocre performance Mr Ford suggested could be expected many years ago was in the context of the the likely performance characteristics of the early 'power castle' concept for IEP trains when operating on diesel away from the wires, not least on the Highland Main Line.

Where exactly are the suggestions of mediocre performance on the part of the actual trains now in operation on GW metals, whether using diesel or overhead electric power?

Please don't try to revive the silly stuff about them not being able to get to 125mph on diesel - when that was never expected, with diesel operation only being planned in places with speed limits no higher than 110mph. Running at anything above that speed on diesel is now confined to trains between Wootton Bassett and the Box area, following the commissioning of the electrification to Bristol Parkway - hopefully we will get some positive news on Wootton Bassett to Bristol shortly.

The financial arrangements are entirely down to the government and are just yet another example of the stupidity of Private Finance Initiative contracts as a means to pay for anything at all - something that was known long before the IEP was dreamed up.

Hmm still seems the southwest intercity service to London is the poor relation in the brave new world of GWR. Surely the savings would of been better cutting coaches between Cardiff and Swansea or Oxford and malvern or swindon and Cheltenham. ....
But oh no, sorry, Mark Hopwood actually uses those trains so that would never happen. South west - out of sight and out of mind.
And yes I agree half hourly in Cornwall is an improvement from an inter regional perspective, I am just disappointed in the downgrade of the more important intercity services to London which I fear will eventually lose custom.

Is there a reason you keep making your inaccurate claims about IET operations on other GWR routes?

You know full well that portion working west of Plymouth was a fact of life on London-Cornwall services for many years until the unsplittable HSTs were introduced.

The factors that drove that drove portion working through Cornwall in the past - the limited population (who do not all spend every waking moment travelling up and down by train to Plymouth, never mind London) and the resultant modest passenger numbers outside the holiday season - have not changed during the HSTs' lifetime.

So whether you like it or not, when the time came to replace the HSTs, it was also an opportunity to look again at how the London services were operated and how services in Cornwall in general are organised. If Network Rail had not screwed up timetable planning, we would already be able to see how the plans that resulted from that process were working out in practice.

Eh? Off peak Swansea and Cheltenham are dead between Cardiff and Swansea and Swindon and Cheltenham. Fact.

When the Cheltenham service goes hourly with the new timetable, most services outside peak periods will be five-car (at present the largely two-hourly IET service is simply replicating the previous HST operation). Fact. It is also a fact that most off-peak Oxford and Cotswold services are already worked by five-car IETs.

If the South Wales services are dead outside the peaks, what on earth are off-peak HSTs through Cornwall outside the holiday season? Deader than dead? Please don't pretend that they are packed to the gunwhales.
 

samuelmorris

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Hmm still seems the southwest intercity service to London is the poor relation in the brave new world of GWR. Surely the savings would of been better cutting coaches between Cardiff and Swansea or Oxford and malvern or swindon and Cheltenham. ....
But oh no, sorry, Mark Hopwood actually uses those trains so that would never happen. South west - out of sight and out of mind.
And yes I agree half hourly in Cornwall is an improvement from an inter regional perspective, I am just disappointed in the downgrade of the more important intercity services to London which I fear will eventually lose custom.
Lose custom to what though? Road travel isn't always a viable alternative.

Some folk might actually aim for those windowless seats so they can do work on tablet/laptop with the reduced risk of a low sun shining on the screen
I would happily sit there if I travelled the route often. If there was such a seat on the stock used on my way home from London for example, I'd happily use it.
 

irish_rail

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The mediocre performance Mr Ford suggested could be expected many years ago was in the context of the the likely performance characteristics of the early 'power castle' concept for IEP trains when operating on diesel away from the wires, not least on the Highland Main Line.

Where exactly are the suggestions of mediocre performance on the part of the actual trains now in operation on GW metals, whether using diesel or overhead electric power?

Please don't try to revive the silly stuff about them not being able to get to 125mph on diesel - when that was never expected, with diesel operation only being planned in places with speed limits no higher than 110mph. Running at anything above that speed on diesel is now confined to trains between Wootton Bassett and the Box area, following the commissioning of the electrification to Bristol Parkway - hopefully we will get some positive news on Wootton Bassett to Bristol shortly.

The financial arrangements are entirely down to the government and are just yet another example of the stupidity of Private Finance Initiative contracts as a means to pay for anything at all - something that was known long before the IEP was dreamed up.



Is there a reason you keep making your inaccurate claims about IET operations on other GWR routes?

You know full well that portion working west of Plymouth was a fact of life on London-Cornwall services for many years until the unsplittable HSTs were introduced.

The factors that drove that drove portion working through Cornwall in the past - the limited population (who do not all spend every waking moment travelling up and down by train to Plymouth, never mind London) and the resultant modest passenger numbers outside the holiday season - have not changed during the HSTs' lifetime.

So whether you like it or not, when the time came to replace the HSTs, it was also an opportunity to look again at how the London services were operated and how services in Cornwall in general are organised. If Network Rail had not screwed up timetable planning, we would already be able to see how the plans that resulted from that process were working out in practice.



When the Cheltenham service goes hourly with the new timetable, most services outside peak periods will be five-car (at present the largely two-hourly IET service is simply replicating the previous HST operation). Fact. It is also a fact that most off-peak Oxford and Cotswold services are already worked by five-car IETs.

If the South Wales services are dead outside the peaks, what on earth are off-peak HSTs through Cornwall outside the holiday season? Deader than dead? Please don't pretend that they are packed to the gunwhales.
The off peak between Cardiff and Swansea is far quieter in passenger numbers compared with off season passenger numbers in Cornwall. That is true , like it or not.
I object to downgrading of the quality of services. What is your problem with that Jimm? It may not be your livelihood, but it is mine and therefore I have a vested interest in trying to provide the best service possible .
Why do u obsess over settling, and doing everything to just about get by , rather than trying to provide excellence which is what the railway should be doing.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I didn't see the programme last night but a couple of things come to mind (and I realise that a lot is off-topic but here goes).
1 The original NR indicative costing was for the mainline from Airport Jct to Bristol and Cardiff but not the slow/relief lines.
2 No infrastructure work was included apart from what was necessary for planting masts and to achieve correct electrical clearances to the then current standards.
3 Trains were not included in the costings.
4 No line-speed increase was expected.
Given the scope change on this project, it's no wonder that costs have increased by an eye-watering amount. As with the WCML upgrade, I expect that a great deal of the backlog of maintenance has been lumped into the total cost. I have no inside knowledge on the high output trains but, they were designed to put in a certain size of pile which, I suspect, would have been adequate for conventional single track wiring but the design of the masts was changed to TTC which would necessitate a more robust foundation which the piling trains were unable to install.

Not much of that reflects my recollection of the way the GW upgrade started.
The sequence of authorisations was Airport Jn-Maidenhead (for Crossrail), Maidenhead-Oxford/Newbury (for TV suburban), and then Didcot-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea.
So slow line electrification was definitely in scope from the start.
Cardiff-Swansea was always a loose end and not included in the initial design/costings.
The IEP procurement and OHLE design was for 140mph capability from the start, and the high output construction trains were designed to match that.
The whole system was over-specified in all areas.
NR appears to have made no attempts to de-spec the system for slower routes, so we have Series 1 everywhere.
Another major cost was the resignalling of the entire route, which was definitely in scope as the previous GW system couldn't support AC electrification.
 

bastien

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Not much of that reflects my recollection of the way the GW upgrade started.
The sequence of authorisations was Airport Jn-Maidenhead (for Crossrail), Maidenhead-Oxford/Newbury (for TV suburban), and then Didcot-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea.
So slow line electrification was definitely in scope from the start.
Cardiff-Swansea was always a loose end and not included in the initial design/costings.
The IEP procurement and OHLE design was for 140mph capability from the start, and the high output construction trains were designed to match that.
The whole system was over-specified in all areas.
NR appears to have made no attempts to de-spec the system for slower routes, so we have Series 1 everywhere.
Another major cost was the resignalling of the entire route, which was definitely in scope as the previous GW system couldn't support AC electrification.
Specifying everything for 140mph has to be the daftest decision of all. The 91s and mk4s never did it. The Pendolinos never did it. And neither will the 800s.
 

Goldfish62

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Specifying everything for 140mph has to be the daftest decision of all. The 91s and mk4s never did it. The Pendolinos never did it. And neither will the 800s.
Yes, UK railways do seem to have a long term issue with going any faster than 125mph.
 

Clarence Yard

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Eh? Off peak Swansea and Cheltenham are dead between Cardiff and Swansea and Swindon and Cheltenham. Fact.

Depends which train. I have the luxury of knowing the exact loadings figures and there are some trains which are surprisingly well loaded for time of day. Some others are dead but then you have to look at the whole diagram - when is the next heavy load? If you drop the formation, where do you attach? Where does that unit come from? Does it work with the platform workings? etc, etc.

When DA2 was being negotiated with the DfT, a full train by train SX crowding model had to be compiled and the West Country gave the FG HQ bid team quite a few issues because, out of season, it was not showing enough load. Getting the Cornish half hourly in was seen as a priority because of the cost of going all 9 on the cl.802 fleet was not going to fly and in the process we would have killed the Cornish half hourly.

The advantage of this approach was that going from 5 to 8 (Long Rock has severe issues with 9 car units) could be achieved by adding additional cars later on, when demand warranted it.
 

irish_rail

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And so are the Winter WofE services!
Have you ever actually travelled on a winter wofe service out of London? 1003 though to 2003 are far from dead, the only dead trains are the early ones off London and the 2103 and 2145 off Paddington. These trains are a long way from dead.
 

cactustwirly

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Have you ever actually travelled on a winter wofe service out of London? 1003 though to 2003 are far from dead, the only dead trains are the early ones off London and the 2103 and 2145 off Paddington. These trains are a long way from dead.

I've travelled on the 0903 PAD - PLY multiple times, and it's been barely more than 1/4 full each time!
 

Bikeman78

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Depends which train. I have the luxury of knowing the exact loadings figures and there are some trains which are surprisingly well loaded for time of day. Some others are dead but then you have to look at the whole diagram - when is the next heavy load? If you drop the formation, where do you attach? Where does that unit come from? Does it work with the platform workings? etc, etc.

When DA2 was being negotiated with the DfT, a full train by train SX crowding model had to be compiled and the West Country gave the FG HQ bid team quite a few issues because, out of season, it was not showing enough load. Getting the Cornish half hourly in was seen as a priority because of the cost of going all 9 on the cl.802 fleet was not going to fly and in the process we would have killed the Cornish half hourly.

The advantage of this approach was that going from 5 to 8 (Long Rock has severe issues with 9 car units) could be achieved by adding additional cars later on, when demand warranted it.
One can only hope that the diagrams will take account of the summer loadings. Whilst a five car will be fine on a drizzly Wednesday in February, trying to split a wedged 10 car at Plymouth in summer will not be popular.
 

Clarence Yard

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When the new IET timetable is in force, the high summer formations in the west will be different from the winter ones.
 
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