GWR Class 800

[GBM]

It’s on electric power it glitches, and it seems to only be iPhones, well if was on my 7. Haven’t tried it on my XR.

Been on HST's and IET's a few times now. Not had any trouble with our Android's at any point.

 

[Jimini]

Yep same here (regular commuter on the line). iPhone XR and iPhone 7+ both have the issue when on AC power.

 

[jayah]

Absolutely right. In fact you would rather the train arrive at it booked arrival time or earlier, than have an earlier booked arrival time that is always late!
But I do see the point that all the talk about quicker journey times to/from the West is not materialising in the way many people expected.
My view is that The Paddington Reading stretch is almost oversaturated - and the infrastructure and operational procedures do not currently allow even a smooth following of one train behind another at a 3 minute headway without the second train starting to be checked by signals somewhere en-route!
Then you have the issue of trains even being despatched and moving off right time. Even a minutes delay causes the train 3 mins behind to suffer signal checks very early and extend the running times. If you have some IET's still running in diesel mode from time to time under the wires, then you have another issue to factor in.
But let's face the facts. Electrification was only ever going to deliver marginal time improvements due to the superior acceleration of the 80X's, and maybe slightly lower dwell times -on paper at least.
I would have been more than happy if no journey time improvements had been claimed, but the superior performance of the trains used to recover delay.
As you quite rightly say, a minute here or there saved on a 5 hour journey isn't going to have the traveling public suddenly ditching their cars for the train!

Getting Airport Jn to work requires a traffic management system or at least something better than two trains at full speed racing to the point of conflict, resulting in one having to restart from a halt or close to.

The HSTs are very slow off the mark by modern standards and a Class 220 could have delivered most of the benefits from speed and power doors. It is sad that these days it seems to trains could do more but everything is nailed down by the software. In the halcyon days of the HST there wasn't even a speed limit!

 

[Peter Sarf]

And I just realised, in my eagerness to reply, that I might be ten pages too late !.

Ironic really, seeing as they were meant to be primarily electric trains with diesel use limited to beyond the wires. The impression gained is that this has encouraged slack maintenance from Hitachi - bet DfT didn’t put any penalties in the contract for it though!

Well my thought are :- I can imagine that the extra use of diesel, where all GWR 80Xs now have diesel engines, has resulted in a greater workload for the maintenance teams. This, coupled with the greater wear and tear on the diesel engine etc, means there is less time to maintain/repair the purely electric traction. The priority will be to keep the diesel part of the train in better condition as there is less electrification for the train to use than originally planned.

The things were specified by the Department for Transport. So the seats are their fault. I cannot comment on the 80Xs because I have not used one yet, might not ever. The newer trains in London (700s) are enough to make me believe how terrible the seats are on 80Xs. I will pay a lot less and go by coach as I don't have the money to waste. I go to Cardiff a lot from London. I pay £5 each way. My coach is quicker than a rail replacement coach which plenty of travellers have paid rail fares to endure.

This is terrible work,
do you know the model number of this train?
Review of workers in Italy
To prevent further problems
It will be needed internal investigation

Its the UK railways fault for their lemming like rush to buy these trains in large quantities too fast. This has resulted in work that could have gone to Newton Aylcliffe later next decade going to a dodgey Italian factory that Hitachi had to use. The result will be a lack of orders for Newton Aylcliffe later and potentially a larger pile of rubbish now.

The UK made these mistakes when we bought large quantities of unproven diesel designs back in the late 1950s - early 1960s. Will these 80Xs last any longer than the trains the HSTs replaced ?. The HSTs have so far lasted 40+ years ?. The HSTs where what British Rail Enginering said was possible - not what a customer dreamt of (that was the APT). We suffered from this big bang approach (in the 1980s iirc) when we put off replacing first generation DMUs that were all getting life expired too close together. Now we have lots of second generation DMUs that are all getting life expired too close together.

You can only wonder at the comments on sites like tripadvisor which are already now pretty appalling about the 800`s on the Penzance route once the season starts in earnest in Devon and Cornwall. Contrary to what many on this forum think the seasons has already started there and it`s only going to get worse. Yes there`ll be more seats to be sure but those trolley`s are never going to get down those aisles. Taking the buffet section away on this route will prove a big mistake. You`ve only got to look at cross-country's voyagers to know that. They don`t even bother taking the trolley out when it gets too busy, which is a regular occurrence with XC.

Well years ago I vowed to avoid the buffets and trolley on trains. They are too unreliable in my experience. So I take my own food and drink - it is cheaper and more reliable.

 

[The Ham]

My coach is quicker than a rail replacement coach which plenty of travellers have paid rail fares to endure.

That's like saying that I walk as it's quicker than cycling when I have to fix a puncture. Of course both are likely but not that frequent and in the case if rail replacement buses tend to be well advertised.

 

[Master29]

.

And there you state the crux of the matter. The 802 `s were a rush job but it wasn`t like we didn`t have the time to find a decent replacement is it given the HST`s have been going for 40+ years now and were only meant as an interim of around twenty years anyway. A convenient truth lost on many members here. To compare Londons buses in the 70`s the IET is the Daimler Fleetline to the Routemaster, the HST. There are eerie similarities.

 

[Antman]

In /reading at the moment, with a clear view of GWML. I can't help but notice over half of the IEPs have pantographs down as they pass.... surely it maes more sense to be under the wires and running on electric. This is up and down line trains (so not just coming from non-wire land and not putting gup pantograph at Reading stop).... but also out of Paddington..... (and for trains that are stopping at Reading as well). Is that intentional ? Or are they struggling to get good reliability on a) electric and b) the pantograph/switchover ? So better to run on diesel ?

 

[coppercapped]

In /reading at the moment, with a clear view of GWML. I can't help but notice over half of the IEPs have pantographs down as they pass.... surely it maes more sense to be under the wires and running on electric. This is up and down line trains (so not just coming from non-wire land and not putting gup pantograph at Reading stop).... but also out of Paddington..... (and for trains that are stopping at Reading as well). Is that intentional ? Or are they struggling to get good reliability on a) electric and b) the pantograph/switchover ? So better to run on diesel ?

Agility Trains/Hitachi seems to have serious problems in managing its maintenance work at the moment. I suspect there are many reasons, some due to changes of plan, some due to inexperience and others due to contractual issues between Agility Trains/Hitachi and the DfT.

Some of the GWR insiders who post here have pointed out that in the early days of operation any electrical issue that was fixed at Stoke Gifford meant that the train had to use diesel power until it was checked at North Pole as only North Pole had working overhead line equipment. I understand that the overhead at Stoke Gifford has now been energised so this constraint should be easing. However Maliphant depot at Swansea will now not be wired at all so any set turning up there having a fault with the 25kV part of the traction electrical circuits will have to be repaired and tested elsewhere.

The train was designed in Japan and only assembled in the UK or Italy. This means that there is no corpus of knowledge in the UK about how the trains tick. Agility Trains/Hitachi is a large, geographically very spread out 'start-up' company with no inherited corporate memory - I suspect it is struggling to learn how to manage itself let alone how to manage the trains for which it is responsible.

Unless things have changed recently, Hitachi has no design office in the UK. This means that any modifications found necessary in the light of experience will have to be developed, and probably manufactured, in Japan with all the long lead times this brings with it. And heaven knows if there are any contractual issues between Agility Trains/Hitachi and the DfT which might complicate any changes made to the train especially if they cost significant amounts of money.

 

[Wychwood93]

Agility Trains/Hitachi seems to have serious problems in managing its maintenance work at the moment. I suspect there are many reasons, some due to changes of plan, some due to inexperience and others due to contractual issues between Agility Trains/Hitachi and the DfT.

Some of the GWR insiders who post here have pointed out that in the early days of operation any electrical issue that was fixed at Stoke Gifford meant that the train had to use diesel power until it was checked at North Pole as only North Pole had working overhead line equipment. I understand that the overhead at Stoke Gifford has now been energised so this constraint should be easing. However Maliphant depot at Swansea will now not be wired at all so any set turning up there having a fault with the 25kV part of the traction electrical circuits will have to be repaired and tested elsewhere.

The train was designed in Japan and only assembled in the UK or Italy. This means that there is no corpus of knowledge in the UK about how the trains tick. Agility Trains/Hitachi is a large, geographically very spread out 'start-up' company with no inherited corporate memory - I suspect it is struggling to learn how to manage itself let alone how to manage the trains for which it is responsible.

Unless things have changed recently, Hitachi has no design office in the UK. This means that any modifications found necessary in the light of experience will have to be developed, and probably manufactured, in Japan with all the long lead times this brings with it. And heaven knows if there are any contractual issues between Agility Trains/Hitachi and the DfT which might complicate any changes made to the train especially if they cost significant amounts of money.

Thank you coppercapped - a good post. The Maliphant analogy (why not wired, etc. ?) also for Long Rock - I accept no dangly wires for many miles but... still have to trudge to Stoke Gifford/North Pole for a fix if an ac problem. Set swap perhaps along the way? Something else in the mix.

 

[TractiveEffort]

In /reading at the moment, with a clear view of GWML. I can't help but notice over half of the IEPs have pantographs down as they pass.... surely it maes more sense to be under the wires and running on electric. This is up and down line trains (so not just coming from non-wire land and not putting gup pantograph at Reading stop).... but also out of Paddington..... (and for trains that are stopping at Reading as well). Is that intentional ? Or are they struggling to get good reliability on a) electric and b) the pantograph/switchover ? So better to run on diesel ?

There were 5 x 5 car units on diesel only at the start of day, various reasons, it’s better to have them out on diesel, rather than sat in a depot waiting for repair.

 

[fgwrich]

I gather there was a failure today involving 802114 which had to be rescued and dragged clear by 802013 & 802015. Must have been fun for the 2x 5 cars!

 

[td97]

NR excessively increasing track access charges for entirely avoidable diesel under the wire services would see an end to the practice - hit Agility where it hurts. Passenger dissatisfaction clearly hasn't changed practices.
Something needs to change - it's not acceptable that the benefits of electrification still do not reach all users, and quite frankly Agility have been taking passengers and NR for a ride for far too long, even if a diesel train is better than no train. A rail industry figure has been conducting tests of onboard NO2 and it's through the roof when on diesel mode - even on the most modern diesel train there is.

Peaked at 224 µg/m3. Wiltshire + Gloucestershire under wires was 20-30 µg/m3 NO2 - 10x under diesel

Health lecture time...
For reference

Spoiler

(Translates to "I'm not interested in an off-topic discussion as to whether you think WHO/PHE guidelines are worth the paper they're written on")

, a WHO report concludes with a 1 hour guideline for exposure above 200µg/m3 - which is surpassed even for the GWML end-product with Cardiff - Swansea un-electrified, let alone the whole journey from Paddington.

On the basis of these human clinical data, a 1-hour guideline of 200 µg/m3 is proposed.

PHE conclude that NO2 is disease-causing

the ... evidence now suggests that it would be sensible to regard NO2 as causing some of the health impact found to be associated with it in epidemiological studies.

Now, people who actually let this sort of thing affect their daily lifestyle need to stay at home with their air purifiers etc. - but the infrastructure is there, and incompetence is all that's holding back 'cleaner' journeys for every passenger. Yes, including the passengers on the 5 daily diesel diagrams who pay exactly the same as their compatriots who benefit from electric journeys.

 

[Master29]

And there you state the crux of the matter. The 802 `s were a rush job but it wasn`t like we didn`t have the time to find a decent replacement is it given the HST`s have been going for 40+ years now and were only meant as an interim of around twenty years anyway. A convenient truth lost on many members here. To compare Londons buses in the 70`s the IET is the Daimler Fleetline to the Routemaster, the HST. There are eerie similarities.

I gather there was a failure today involving 802114 which had to be rescued and dragged clear by 802013 & 802015. Must have been fun for the 2x 5 cars!

A 19 car IET. That would have been fun had it been down Penzance way.

 

[47271]

Can anyone help with a couple of practical questions on these wretched trains, which I reluctantly use once a month or so? My seat is uncomfortable with what feels like a metal bar under my backside and a piece of chipboard in the small of my back, and there's no means to get a coffee on board, but I can't do anything about that and it's not the purpose of my post.

I'm constantly wrong footed on where I should stand to board a coach letter when they're running in multiple. I've just got on at Bristol and had to walk six carriage lengths on the platform because I wrongly predicted where my coach would be. As far as I can see it's arranged A-B-C-D-E-K-J-I-H-G, which is far from helpful. Is there any rhyme or reason to it, or is every journey a surprise?

Which Standard Class coaches are unreserved, the last time I thought I'd found one and a table, it turned out to be an unexpected Quiet Coach, and I had to get up twice to make very short calls?

Many thanks for any advice for future journeys.

 

[404250]

1st class can be
front/middle
middle/back
front/back
middle

That's in 10 car, and 9 car can be front or back. Having 2 trains in the 10s that run both ways makes too many combinations of set-up so your coach could be anywhere. I'd stand in the middle.

 

[47271]

1st class can be
front/middle
middle/back
front/back
middle

That's in 10 car, and 9 car can be front or back. Having 2 trains in the 10s that run both ways makes too many combinations of set-up so your coach could be anywhere. I'd stand in the middle.

Thanks, that tells me all I need to know about how the train is likely to turn up! What about unreserved coaches?

A trolley has just gone by, that's a bonus.

 

[Master29]

Thanks, that tells me all I need to know about how the train is likely to turn up! What about unreserved coaches?

A trolley has just gone by, that's a bonus.

To be fair HST formations were often bottom about face thus leaving you with a nice extra long platform walk unless you read the destination boards.

 

[404250]

Thanks, that tells me all I need to know about how the train is likely to turn up! What about unreserved coaches?

A trolley has just gone by, that's a bonus.

Sorry I don't know much about reservations, only that they often aren't working.

 

[supervc-10]

@td97 how different are those figures to other diesel stock, out of interest?

Totally agree that NR should be charging more for 'unnecessary' diesels under the wires. Should do the same for things like the Virgin 221s operating Birmingham to Scotland 100% under the wires!

 

[Dai Corner]

@td97 how different are those figures to other diesel stock, out of interest?

Totally agree that NR should be charging more for 'unnecessary' diesels under the wires. Should do the same for things like the Virgin 221s operating Birmingham to Scotland 100% under the wires!

As far as 80x on the GWML is concerned running on diesel costs NR less as they don't have to supply any electricity and there will be no wear to the OHLE.

It would be interesting to know the difference between track access charges for pure electric and electro-diesel units on the ECML.

 

[supervc-10]

Surely the electricity is paid for by the train operator?

 

[Rob F]

One of the big selling points of electric trains (among many) is that they are more reliable and simpler than their diesel counterparts. Why do the IETs seem to be unreliable on electric but diesel works OK?

 

[Dai Corner]

Surely the electricity is paid for by the train operator?

Train operators pay NR for the electricity they use through Track Access Charges. Whether the system is sophisticated enough to record when a train booked to run on electricity actually runs on diesel I don't know.

Then you have to account for the extra diesel fuel used. If it's Hitachi / Agility's fault for not fixing a fault do they pay? What if operational problems mean the unit spends the night at Swansea instead of Stoke Gifford or North Pole and the electrical fault can't be fixed because there's no power supply to fix it?

I have visions of an office full of accountants and lawyers arguing over such things.

 

[Mikey C]

One of the big selling points of electric trains (among many) is that they are more reliable and simpler than their diesel counterparts. Why do the IETs seem to be unreliable on electric but diesel works OK?

That was puzzling me too. It's not as if Hitachi has no experience of running electric trains in the UK, with the 395s in service for several years and their kit operating underneath some Networkers

 

[swt_passenger]

Train operators pay NR for the electricity they use through Track Access Charges.

It’s metered separately to track access charges on recent stock, a proportion of the trains have meters and they are used to calculate what the whole fleet is doing.

This started in about 2010, I think the Pendolino fleet was the first to be retrofitted with the hardware.

 

[themiller]

Train operators pay NR for the electricity they use through Track Access Charges.

I got the impression that TOCs and FOCs had fitted meters to some of their trains/locos so that they could be charged for what they used which highlighted the losses in the system to NR.

 

[Dai Corner]

It’s metered separately to track access charges on recent stock, a proportion of the trains have meters and they are used to calculate what the whole fleet is doing.

This started in about 2010, I think the Pendolino fleet was the first to be retrofitted with the hardware.

Ah thanks. I'd forgotten that.

 

[irish_rail]

Just a quick update on coupling and uncoupling operations at Plymouth (admittedly anecdotal and not conclusive).
Today 9 minute delay on the Golden Hind at Plymouth due to coupling issues. Yesterday, same "prestigous" train cancelled altogether at Plymouth due to inability of two trains to couple. Saturday at least 3 different couplings/ uncouplings at Plymouth experienced delays of at least 10 minutes due to further problems.....
So I will await the usual apologists to tell me that this is all fine and dandy and why should passengers in the west get 9 car trains which will run less than full in Cornwall. However if things carry on the way they are i can see the airlines and coaches taking a lot of business away from the railway on this route.
As a colleague pointed out to me, surely it would make far more sense to operate pairs of 5 car trains on routes to say Cardiff and bristol running all day as 10 car trains giving the core great western routes high capacity trains whilst using the 9 cars on the " intercity " route to the far west.....

 

[td97]

One of the big selling points of electric trains (among many) is that they are more reliable and simpler than their diesel counterparts. Why do the IETs seem to be unreliable on electric but diesel works OK?

Diesel doesn't work ok; some units are released with engines isolated.

That was puzzling me too. It's not as if Hitachi has no experience of running electric trains in the UK, with the 395s in service for several years and their kit operating underneath some Networkers

It's reportedly because the depots cannot carry out mileage-based exams on time. Unless of course there's further issues with the reliability of the electrical components.

@td97 how different are those figures to other diesel stock, out of interest?

Unfortunately I'm not sure. I've had a quick look to see if there's any publications on a research library but to no avail.
There was another post published yesterday (a follow up to the one I originally linked) to reiterate the NO2 emissions for 800 diesel vs electric.
However this is a brand new diesel train, meeting recent emission standards, with air conditioning which is probably filtered somewhat. In all likelihood, the 800 example presented is probably the best case scenario for any diesel traction. As for a 156 with all the hopper windows open...

 

[northernbelle]

I gather there was a failure today involving 802114 which had to be rescued and dragged clear by 802013 & 802015. Must have been fun for the 2x 5 cars!

The set was low on fuel so was stabled at Totnes as it wasn't certain it would make Laira on the fuel available - so a depot error rather than a fault with the train as such.

The video of the rescue I saw showed the formation making good progress - I suspect 6 engines for 19 coaches equated to just over 'half power' overall, so quite workable in a rescue scenario.

Just a quick update on coupling and uncoupling operations at Plymouth (admittedly anecdotal and not conclusive).
Today 9 minute delay on the Golden Hind at Plymouth due to coupling issues. Yesterday, same "prestigous" train cancelled altogether at Plymouth due to inability of two trains to couple. Saturday at least 3 different couplings/ uncouplings at Plymouth experienced delays of at least 10 minutes due to further problems.....
So I will await the usual apologists to tell me that this is all fine and dandy and why should passengers in the west get 9 car trains which will run less than full in Cornwall. However if things carry on the way they are i can see the airlines and coaches taking a lot of business away from the railway on this route.
As a colleague pointed out to me, surely it would make far more sense to operate pairs of 5 car trains on routes to say Cardiff and bristol running all day as 10 car trains giving the core great western routes high capacity trains whilst using the 9 cars on the " intercity " route to the far west.....

You are right; the coupling problems are not fine and dandy. But the solution is to fix the issue, not run excessively long trains to avoid having to solve the source of the issue.