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GWR Class 800

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mr_jrt

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How anyone can be a fan of building a small number of bespoke diesel locomotives - and providing all the supporting facilities they will require - to drag around very expensive electric trains is beyond me....

But people will keep going on about it, just as they will keep going on about how all express trains should have 10 coaches, a silver-service restaurant car, buffet counter with a selection of beers, wines and spirits, and a big blue engine on the front...

I'd be very surprised if anyone posting here wanders about wearing a badge that says "I'm a fan of bi-modes", it's just that some of us recognise that we are not going to electrify to everywhere all at once and that in the meantime there has to be a way to maintain through express services to the places that are not going to see wires for some years.

There appear to be two different ways of achieving that, bi-modes or a big blue engine, but not once, when I have asked you, or other fans of big blue engines, to explain what you do with the big blue engines when electrification is extended, have you come up with an answer.

The principle I have always worked to is simply that if a line has enough traffic to justify an express through service, it has enough traffic to justify the wires. If it doesn't, then it doesn't!

You then end up with two options. Either a diesel shuttle past the wires, or attach a diesel loco the front of the EMU. The fact that performance will be lower is negligible as by virtue of the fact it's not wired, there isn't enough of a business case for better services. If usage picks up and the wires get extended, then simple - design these locos as mixed traffic locos and they can either be found a home hauling freight (as I suspect a lot of freight-only lines will not be able to make a business case for wire for quite some time), or sell them overseas. Plus, you'll still want to keep Thunderbird locos around. Having a lot more around would probably be a boon when "incidents" occur.

Makes much more sense than dragging diesel engines around under the wires, day in, day out, that will be mostly pointless except at the extremes of their routes. Bi-mode is like having motorail coaches stuck on the end for passengers to bring their cars just in case the train breaks down. :p
 
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starrymarkb

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If the Hitachi make a decent job of the IEP and focus on the customer rather than the performance, it will be a job well done. Having said that, Hitachi will never compete with a bouncy MK3 set in comfort, even if it is quicker.

Thanks,
Ross

They might, if the interior is specified the same as an ICE it'll blow any Mk3 out of the water (but if they are using 376 sets as suggested above it then no)
 

Xavi

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The common sense thing to do with IEP vehicles would be to have luggage stacks in all four corners adjacent to the door pockets, i.e. do away with the windowless seats losing 4 per standard class vehicle. It would hardly be over-provision of luggage space, but it would mess up all the DfT statistics about %increase in seats, so no chance of common sense prevailing.
 

Harbon 1

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I haven't been keeping up with this thread so I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but...

Those seats look terrible and horrendously uncomfortable.

Are they trying to push people off intercity long-distance trains? Taking away the buffet counter/shop, making the interiors feel cold and without character and rock hard seats? Not to mention losing tables and the loss of some windows. Who would want to sit from London to Edinburgh with no view whatsoever.

I'm not saying bring back loco hauled Mk1/2s because yes they are slower, but is acceleration really and issue? Doesn't a Cl91 & Mk4s accelerate faster from 100-125 than a Voyager?
 

fgwrich

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They might, if the interior is specified the same as an ICE it'll blow any Mk3 out of the water (but if they are using 376 sets as suggested above it then no)

I haven't been keeping up with this thread so I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but...

Those seats look terrible and horrendously uncomfortable.

Are they trying to push people off intercity long-distance trains? Taking away the buffet counter/shop, making the interiors feel cold and without character and rock hard seats? Not to mention losing tables and the loss of some windows. Who would want to sit from London to Edinburgh with no view whatsoever.

I'm not saying bring back loco hauled Mk1/2s because yes they are slower, but is acceleration really and issue? Doesn't a Cl91 & Mk4s accelerate faster from 100-125 than a Voyager?

I'm afraid so, the article in the July 2014 issue of Modern Railways (the one with the IEP on the front) says that Fansia is supplying the seats (The same firm who created the 376/'ONE' Mk3 Priority Seat'/Desiro City Thames Link thin hard seats). It doesn't say that it is the same seat as the likes of the 376 but the construction & design would appear to be very similar. Quite likely it'll be a more padded version of the Desiro City FC Seat. The only difference that MR Mentions is that Fansia have reduced the height of the seat compared to the current Primarius seating used in East Coasts HSTs - Standard is a whole 10mm lower while IEP FC is a whole 20mm lower. The telling quote though is this one though:

"The ones in the mock up still have hard seats but I'm assured the production ones will be softer and have padded armrests"

Another area to avoid is the first two rows of seating behind the vestibule - handily the ones with the window area occupied by the sliding plug doors as this is where the HVAC module sits above.

The interior slope will be a rise of 150mm - noticeable by the tables which will be level with the window in the middle of the coach, but just below the frame at the ends. Quite why we have to have a Mk3 style step up into the coach, then a rise in the middle is disappointing given that the Alstom built Adelantes don't have such a step! But of course it's designed to contain the 900 HP MTU engine underneath - I'm assured by MTU that it won't rattle and vibrate as badly as the Cummins 750 HP lump under the voyagers, but it will also come down to Hitachi's build quality - comparing both to an Adelante where I place as my benchmark, we shall see.

As quoted from the Modern Railways article, and I think the best way of summing the 800/801s is this quote.

"The pictures tell the story of the interior and I really must underline the fact that DCA (The design agency responsible for the design and mock up) has done a good job with what the firm was given, but the IEP Project was and will always be hampered by a bad specification. Hitachi also did a good job in tendering it, basically ignoring all the 'desirable' stuff and giving the DfT What it wanted."
 
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Dave1987

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These carriages with the Diesel engines underneath and the high floors will have high floors for the length of their lives so when you have the wires up and remove the engines you will still have the high floors.
 

jon0844

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I don't think I've ever really been on a train here or abroad with seats that I'd consider uncomfortable for a long journey (2 hours or more).

Even on a 377 to Brighton from St Albans, and back on a 319 (around about 2 hours give or take) is fine, and those low seats on a 321/317 haven't done me any harm, nor the thin seats on a 365 (the only time I've been on one for some time has been to King's Lynn, mind).

I am sure the seats will be good, and there's no harm in having the seats in first class being nicer still. After all, you need to offer something to encourage people to upgrade.
 

jimm

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The principle I have always worked to is simply that if a line has enough traffic to justify an express through service, it has enough traffic to justify the wires. If it doesn't, then it doesn't!

You then end up with two options. Either a diesel shuttle past the wires, or attach a diesel loco the front of the EMU. The fact that performance will be lower is negligible as by virtue of the fact it's not wired, there isn't enough of a business case for better services. If usage picks up and the wires get extended, then simple - design these locos as mixed traffic locos and they can either be found a home hauling freight (as I suspect a lot of freight-only lines will not be able to make a business case for wire for quite some time), or sell them overseas. Plus, you'll still want to keep Thunderbird locos around. Having a lot more around would probably be a boon when "incidents" occur.

Makes much more sense than dragging diesel engines around under the wires, day in, day out, that will be mostly pointless except at the extremes of their routes. Bi-mode is like having motorail coaches stuck on the end for passengers to bring their cars just in case the train breaks down. :p

Some principle, since it ignores all sorts of complicating factors relevant to the cost of a wiring project and basically dismisses any prospect of improving a route's fortunes. Never mind the doctrinaire, out-of-hand dismissal of the bi-mode as having anything to offer. Clearly SNCF, for one, would beg to differ on that score.

In the case of both the Cotswold Line and Swindon-Gloucester/Cheltenham, the FGW services account for a very small part of the train services operating at the outer ends of the routes. No-one in their right mind would go to the trouble and expense of putting up wires at places with track layouts as complicated as Worcester and Gloucester for just a couple of trains an hour.

When other wiring projects, such as West Midlands extensions and XC happen, which will involve the majority of services at those two locations going electric, and allow for others, such as South Wales-West Midlands freight to switch as well, then the economics of wiring what are basically simple plain line routes, with the odd point here and there, from Oxford to Worcester and Swindon to Standish, are transformed.

Is usage going to pick up if you provide a second-rate service, operated by mixed-traffic locos with worse performance than the diesel units currently in use? I doubt it. Locos that would not be ideal for either fast passenger trains, nor for the heavy freight trains that dominate that business these days.

Even now, in the case of the Cotswold Line, there are people from Worcestershire, in particular, who drive all the way to the Chiltern Line, or use Virgin via Birmingham, because of the supposed slow journeys that FGW offers, but if I take what you say at face value then it's absolutely fine to have all these cars out on the M5/M42/M40 for years to come, rather than improving the GW service so these people get on a train down the road from where they live.

These carriages with the Diesel engines underneath and the high floors will have high floors for the length of their lives so when you have the wires up and remove the engines you will still have the high floors.

Can you do anything apart from moan, moan, moan? The average height of a 21-year-old British man is 5ft 10in, so I think we might just squeeze into IEPs, whatever the floor height, for a while yet.
 
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po8crg

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The principle I have always worked to is simply that if a line has enough traffic to justify an express through service, it has enough traffic to justify the wires. If it doesn't, then it doesn't!

Like I said,
9CkKNdC.jpg
 

fgwrich

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DCA Have published the Modern Railways article online, so here it is.

http://www.dca-design.com/images/content/pdfs/ModernRailways_Ian_Walmsley_July_2014.pdf

Although they seem to have confused the words of what Ian Walmsley has written with labelling it as a Triumph on their website. Hmm. :roll:

And a few more interior shots by an Interior Magazine also found on DCAs website. I'm now even less keen on the bike stowage area doubling up as a large luggage rack - which to me either indicates that the luggage racks were more of an afterthought and that the Mk3s space still works better. I find it disappointing enough that it only takes 2 instead of the 444s 4 Bikes, and has been described as a place to store a catering trolley in as well.

http://www.dca-design.com/images/content/pdfs/RailwayInteriors2014_Sept.pdf

I'm still also wondering what passengers, particularly in FC will make of the IEPs FC interior given the recent investment in creating a premium feel to the FGW / GWR Mk3s.
 
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CC 72100

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DCA Have published the Modern Railways article online, so here it is.

http://www.dca-design.com/images/content/pdfs/ModernRailways_Ian_Walmsley_July_2014.pdf

Although they seem to have confused the words of what Ian Walmsley has written with labelling it as a Triumph on their website. Hmm. :roll:

And a few more interior shots by an Interior Magazine also found on DCAs website. I'm now even less keen on the bike stowage area doubling up as a large luggage rack - which to me either indicates that the luggage racks were more of an afterthought and that the Mk3s space still works better. I find it disappointing enough that it only takes 2 instead of the 444s 4 Bikes, and has been described as a place to store a catering trolley in as well.

http://www.dca-design.com/images/content/pdfs/RailwayInteriors2014_Sept.pdf

I'm still also wondering what passengers, particularly in FC will make of the IEPs FC interior given the recent investment in creating a premium feel to the FGW / GWR Mk3s.

Those seats at the end of the coach with no window look rather depressing, and are exactly what some of the skeptics (rightly or wrongly) feared.

Also, is it just me or does the shot looking down the length of the carriage resemble a 158?
 

Yew

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Those seats at the end of the coach with no window look rather depressing, and are exactly what some of the skeptics (rightly or wrongly) feared.

Also, is it just me or does the shot looking down the length of the carriage resemble a 158?

I really cannot understand why there are seats there, this seems like the perfect location for luggage racking.. And lets face it, it would hardly be over the top for a Long distance intercity train
 

starrymarkb

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I really cannot understand why there are seats there, this seems like the perfect location for luggage racking.. And lets face it, it would hardly be over the top for a Long distance intercity train

My thoughts as well, but DfT wants maximum seating these days (IIRC they won't let FGW convert the 150/1s to 2+2 like the Native units because it would lead to a loss in the headline number of seats).
 

The Ham

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I really cannot understand why there are seats there, this seems like the perfect location for luggage racking.. And lets face it, it would hardly be over the top for a Long distance intercity train

Given that IEP will have over 15% more seats than a HST and even at four seats per coach (which is much higher than would be the case due to the end coaches having a maximum of 2 and it being less of a problem in first class) in every coach is between 5% and 8% that's still more seats than the current trains if they are not used. However by providing them they can be used on the very busy services, although I would have thought that it would only be for fairly short lengths of journey which would require someone to not be able to sit anywhere else if they so wished.

In an ideal world the seat booking systems would not assign anyone to them.
 

G_A_C_C_C

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Sorry this might have been asked already, but if there is a "YES" vote on Thursday will most of the order for East Coast 800s be scrapped and some of the 801s too? Afterall, there would be no need for the DFT to "PAY" for trains to be built to run north of Berwick.
 

jon0844

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Really, I heard they'll be severing the railway connection and putting up border controls between the new wall that's going to be erected...
 

Yew

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My thoughts as well, but DfT wants maximum seating these days (IIRC they won't let FGW convert the 150/1s to 2+2 like the Native units because it would lead to a loss in the headline number of seats).

Ahh, they're worried about spin being used against them. That makes sense. And I suppose they're also hoping an extra 8 seats per carriage will somehow make everyone love underfloor diesels and slopey floors
 
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NotATrainspott

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Sorry this might have been asked already, but if there is a "YES" vote on Thursday will most of the order for East Coast 800s be scrapped and some of the 801s too? Afterall, there would be no need for the DFT to "PAY" for trains to be built to run north of Berwick.

This is the fantastic irony of the privatisation movement. As more of the state is privatised, it becomes easier and easier to divide up the remaining state as the privatised assets are now managed by legal contracts. The DfT has promised to pay Agility Trains for all the IEPs to be used for 28.5 years and the only way of doing that is to continue with existing plans for them. The same goes for most, if not all, cross-border services.
 

danielnez1

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The DfT has promised to pay Agility Trains for all the IEPs to be used for 28.5 years and the only way of doing that is to continue with existing plans for them. The same goes for most, if not all, cross-border services.

That's just your opinion, not fact. If after a Yes vote, it becomes clear that its not viable to maintain the current level of cross-border services for whatever reason, I'm sure any excess sets could be re-deployed elsewhere.
 

fowler9

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That's just your opinion, not fact. If after a Yes vote, it becomes clear that its not viable to maintain the current level of cross-border services for whatever reason, I'm sure any excess sets could be re-deployed elsewhere.

Yeah because everything north of Newcastle and Carlisle would become pacers. Ha ha.
 

RichmondCommu

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I live in part of FGW-land where services are operated by a mix of HSTs, 180s and Turbos and I can assure you among for a lot of passengers locally - with zero emotional attachment to the railways and who pay little attention to what symbol there is at the top of the timetable columns - seeing which type of train rolls into the platform most certainly does produce a reaction when it is a Turbo, as they know full well that they will be getting a far less comfortable journey than in the other two types.

I dare say that a commuter who has been travelling between Reading and London for a number of years will have learnt to recognise different types of trains so that is hardly a startling revelation. However, if memory serves me correctly do the screens at Reading display how many carriages each train has? If indeed that is the case most travelers will know their fate some minutes in advance. Even if that isn't the case I do wonder how many travelers actually have a hissy fit on the appearance of a Turbo. Not only that but most commuters tend to aim to catch the same train each morning which generally removes the element of surprise.[/QUOTE]

Even infrequent travelers can sense there might be a difference in quality inside as well as out between a short train shaped like a brick and the longer thing with a pointy nose that has just rolled in on the opposite platform.

I'm sorry but that is simply not the case. In my experience infrequent or even fairly frequent travelers pay little or no attention to the train they are about to catch. And they certainly don't spend time at the end of the platform assessing the relative merits or otherwise of each type of train. Indeed the vast majority wouldn't even notice the difference between a train with a streamlined nose and a vertical cab. They are simply not interested.

Three of my children travel by train at least once a month (excluding travel between Richmond and Waterloo which they have been doing since they were nippers). They don't pay attention to anything at a train station unless it's either the screens or the announcements. I think the only time they would notice anything is if a steam train went past and with my son perhaps a freight train. My father in law who likes trains refers to the Pendolino as a funny looking thing but that really is about it. My nephews like trains but that is partly due to my influence and also living at the bottom of the road leading from Dent station.

Since when is a 20-minute interval to Bristol and hourly to Worcester and Gloucester/Cheltenham maintaining the current service?

That is a very good point. However I would be interested to know how the engineering developments behind the 800’s / 801’s have contributed towards to the improved timetable.
 
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WelshBluebird

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Not only that but most commuters tend to aim to catch the same train each morning which generally removes the element of surprise.

That may be the case for Reading etc, but over here in the West, the same service could be made up of a 150 (either with 2x2 or 3x2 seating) or a 158, all of which offer vastly different levels of comfort!
 

jimm

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I dare say that a commuter who has been travelling between Reading and London for a number of years will have learnt to recognise different types of trains so that is hardly a startling revelation. However, if memory serves me correctly do the screens at Reading display how many carriages each train has? If indeed that is the case most travelers will know their fate some minutes in advance. Even if that isn't the case I do wonder how many travelers actually have a hissy fit on the appearance of a Turbo. Not only that but most commuters tend to aim to catch the same train each morning which generally removes the element of surprise.

Well I can assure you that in my neck of the woods when the 180s were withdrawn by FGW first time round and were initially replaced by HSTs, then a matter of months later by Turbos - because filling 500-seat trains off-peak was never going to happen - that there most certainly was a great deal of muttering on platforms whenever Turbos hove into view. And there still is whenever a Turbo turns up instead of a 180, or, even worse, though it does happen, instead of an HST - sometimes even a two-car 165 instead of a 125. People out here most certainly do notice things like that, whatever you may think. But maybe we're just odd? And I am not talking peak periods - my 'commute' is off-peak, so it is not the same crowd every day.

I'm sorry but that is simply not the case. In my experience infrequent or even fairly frequent travelers pay little or no attention to the train they are about to catch. And they certainly don't spend time at the end of the platform assessing the relative merits or otherwise of each type of train. Indeed the vast majority wouldn't even notice the difference between a train with a streamlined nose and a vertical cab. They are simply not interested.

So basically you're saying that no one with half a brain can tell the difference between a train that looks like someone gave a bit of thought to its external appearance (and likely the inside as well - I exclude the Pendolino and Voyager from this but if you will let airline people loose on trains...) and a brick. In the case of the 166 a brick where a lash-up air-con system was installed as an afterthought in the basic 165 design, meaning stuffy summers and freezing winters for passengers for the next 20 years. And even the revamped set-up still struggles on hot days. By contrast, the 180 looks good and is good inside. Shame about the stuff under the floor.

That is a very good point. However I would be interested to know how the engineering developments behind the 800’s / 801’s have contributed towards to the improved timetable.

At what point did you say anything about engineering developments? The ability to split big formations into smaller ones with ease, or vice versa, in service, might be quite a handy engineering development, compared with unsplittable HSTs or 180s that take a long time to split and join. Hence FGW has never done it in service and HT/GC only do it during engineering work to save train paths, with a generous time allowance at Doncaster.
 

RichmondCommu

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Well I can assure you that in my neck of the woods when the 180s were withdrawn by FGW first time round and were initially replaced by HSTs, then a matter of months later by Turbos - because filling 500-seat trains off-peak was never going to happen - that there most certainly was a great deal of muttering on platforms whenever Turbos hove into view. And there still is whenever a Turbo turns up instead of a 180, or, even worse, though it does happen, instead of an HST - sometimes even a two-car 165 instead of a 125. People out here most certainly do notice things like that, whatever you may think. But maybe we're just odd? And I am not talking peak periods - my 'commute' is off-peak, so it is not the same crowd every day.

Given that I imagine the vast majority of your fellow travelers would be able to count from one to ten, it's hardly surprising that the arrival of a two coach train rather than something longer leads to disappointment. However, there would be the same level of disappointment if that two coach train had the nicest front end you ever did see and a very smart interior to match.

So basically you're saying that no one with half a brain can tell the difference between a train that looks like someone gave a bit of thought to its external appearance (and likely the inside as well - I exclude the Pendolino and Voyager from this but if you will let airline people loose on trains...) and a brick. In the case of the 166 a brick where a lash-up air-con system was installed as an afterthought in the basic 165 design, meaning stuffy summers and freezing winters for passengers for the next 20 years. And even the revamped set-up still struggles on hot days. By contrast, the 180 looks good and is good inside. Shame about the stuff under the floor.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. The vast majority of rail users couldn't care less what the train looks like externally providing it does its job. I don’t think any of them would care whether it looked like a brick or not and I speak from personal experience. As far as those people are concerned the train doesn’t belong to them so why should they care. And to be honest I agree with them. Of course they will have opinions on the interior of the train but you can’t please all of the people all of the time. In terms of the class 166, whilst climate control preferences vary between individuals surely if it was such a problem why hasn’t it been fixed?

I have a picture of a Jubilee on my desk at work. My colleagues know that I like trains and think nothing of it; in fact most view it as being quirky. However, whilst I apologise for being crude, despite my senior position in the company if I started talking about good looking trains I would be handed a box of Kleenex and ushered off to the Gents.

At what point did you say anything about engineering developments? The ability to split big formations into smaller ones with ease, or vice versa, in service, might be quite a handy engineering development, compared with unsplittable HSTs or 180s that take a long time to split and join. Hence FGW has never done it in service and HT/GC only do it during engineering work to save train paths, with a generous time allowance at Doncaster.

Several posts’s a go I mentioned the impact that the HST had on Intercity travel away from the WCML and how it had transformed the brand. I also mentioned how BR had peddled the HST for all its worth. Engineering developments had a huge part to play in this. Engineering developments ensured that it was the first train in this country to run consistently at 125 mph, its acceleration, its fantastic brake technology and passenger comfort. And after a few initial teething troubles incredible reliability!

Now I happen to think that the 800’s / 801’s will turn out to be good products because Hitachi’s reputation is riding on it. However let’s not start pretending that the next generation of Intercity trains are bringing anything significantly new to the table.
 
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jimm

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Given that I imagine the vast majority of your fellow travelers would be able to count from one to ten, it's hardly surprising that the arrival of a two coach train rather than something longer leads to disappointment. However, there would be the same level of disappointment if that two coach train had the nicest front end you ever did see and a very smart interior to match.



Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. The vast majority of rail users couldn't care less what the train looks like externally providing it does its job. I don’t think any of them would care whether it looked like a brick or not and I speak from personal experience. As far as those people are concerned the train doesn’t belong to them so why should they care. And to be honest I agree with them. Of course they will have opinions on the interior of the train but you can’t please all of the people all of the time. In terms of the class 166, whilst climate control preferences vary between individuals surely if it was such a problem why hasn’t it been fixed?

I have a picture of a Jubilee on my desk at work. My colleagues know that I like trains and think nothing of it; in fact most view it as being quirky. However, whilst I apologise for being crude, despite my senior position in the company if I started talking about good looking trains I would be handed a box of Kleenex and ushered off to the Gents.



Several posts’s a go I mentioned the impact that the HST had on Intercity travel away from the WCML and how it had transformed the brand. I also mentioned how BR had peddled the HST for all its worth. Engineering developments had a huge part to play in this. Engineering developments ensured that it was the first train in this country to run consistently at 125 mph, its acceleration, its fantastic brake technology and passenger comfort. And after a few initial teething troubles incredible reliability!

Now I happen to think that the 800’s / 801’s will turn out to be good products because Hitachi’s reputation is riding on it. However let’s not start pretending that the next generation of Intercity trains are bringing anything significantly new to the table.

So on the one hand, appearance simply doesn't matter, on the other hand, with the HST, BR played on that appearance for marketing purposes for all it was worth. Why did they bother, when a 125mph brick would have been just fine?

But I have a funny feeling that a certain nosecone will figure very heavily in marketing of the first GW electric services in three years' time...

And I have no doubt that Hitachi will come up with the goods and also that people out here will not groan when an IEP rolls into the station. But they will be doing that so long as Turbos are mixed up with 180s and HSTs.
 

RichmondCommu

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So on the one hand, appearance simply doesn't matter, on the other hand, with the HST, BR played on that appearance for marketing purposes for all it was worth. Why did they bother, when a 125mph brick would have been just fine?

BR had spent a huge amount of time and resources on the HST project so it's hardly surprising that they marketed 125 mph running and peddled the Intercity125 for all its worth. I would argue that a train capable of travelling at 125 mph with a vertical cab would not have been aerodynamically efficient. Are you trying to suggest otherwise?

But I have a funny feeling that a certain nosecone will figure very heavily in marketing of the first GW electric services in three years' time...

Well it would be rather odd peddling those new electric services with a class 180. It's hardly a case of "Sherlock strikes again".

And I have no doubt that Hitachi will come up with the goods and also that people out here will not groan when an IEP rolls into the station. But they will be doing that so long as Turbos are mixed up with 180s and HSTs.

Well how do you suggest FGW solve the Turbo problem, other adjusting the climate control settings and drafting in more DMU’s?
 
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