GWR court hearing advice plus complaint.

[Flyxolydian]

Hi, I was hoping to get some information on how to deal with this situation. Also, sorry for this being long-winded, but I'd like to give as much detail as I can.

Last October I'd bought a return ticket from St. Erth to Truro using a 26-30 railcard (which at the time I did have). Unfortunately I'd left my phone at home that day and because it's a digital railcard I therefore had no proof that I in fact owned said railcard. It's a journey that I made fairly regularly at the time, so it never crossed my mind that I didn't have my phone on me!

Anyway, the ticket inspector interviewed me on the train and when he heard the situation, he gave the option to later provide evidence via a letter that they would send through the post, to which I agreed to. The only problem is, I never received said letter. 5 months later (6th March) and I get a court summons with the option to settle out of court, along with all documentation related to the case. There were a couple of mistakes in these documents which were as follows:

• They had sent all of the letters that I was supposed to receive to the wrong address (my house name is Trenwheal, and they had the address down as Trewhella). Granted that the ticket inspector had terrible writing and had made my house name illegible, but I also had written my address down, which is perfectly readable. But because I never actually received a letter, I was never given a chance to prove that it was an honest mistake & not with malicious intent.
• The letter that I received wasn't dated, and given that I was given 7 days to settle out of court I had no idea whether that meant from receipt of the letter or from when it was produced.

Initially I was going to contest in court, but ended up paying the fine later on that evening as the circumstances deemed it not financially beneficial to me to contest. I paid the fine, received an email from GWR stating that the case would be closed, and figured that that was the end of it. I was going to write a complaint over the situation and how I was unfairly fined without being given a chance to prove my innocence.

Today I received a notice for a new hearing date, still with the incorrect address on it. Now consider me pretty annoyed, for as far as I thought the case was closed following payment of the fine. I'm planning on phoning up the court to inform them that the case had been closed by GWR, but before that I'm going to send off the complaint, with this additional info about the hearing.

My question is, how should I go about forming this complaint, as I find it pretty unjust that I was basically blackmailed into paying a fine that I wouldn't have needed to pay if I'd had the chance to prove my innocence.

Sorry for the long post, and any advice is appreciated!

 

[30907]

1. Were you asked to buy a new ticket, or did the inspector allow you to travel with the discounted ticket? Was this the first time this year?
2. Is there a house called Trewhella with your postcode, and where was the second letter delivered?

However, to your next actions:
1. Contacting the court is a sensible procedure, as the case should have been withdrawn by GWR; they will advise if you need to take any other action.
2. A letter to GWR customer service/complaints (check on the website for the exact name; save writing to the MD at this stage!). Set out the course of events clearly, including the date and time and the missing letter, and request that they refund the out of court settlement in full (it wasn't a fine).
I would advise against criticising their decision to prosecute - from their point of view you didn't supply evidence of your railcard, so they were justified in following that up.
Feel free to post a redacted draft on here for comment.

 

[Flyxolydian]

1. Were you asked to buy a new ticket, or did the inspector allow you to travel with the discounted ticket? Was this the first time this year?
2. Is there a house called Trewhella with your postcode, and where was the second letter delivered?

However, to your next actions:
1. Contacting the court is a sensible procedure, as the case should have been withdrawn by GWR; they will advise if you need to take any other action.
2. A letter to GWR customer service/complaints (check on the website for the exact name; save writing to the MD at this stage!). Set out the course of events clearly, including the date and time and the missing letter, and request that they refund the out of court settlement in full (it wasn't a fine).
I would advise against criticising their decision to prosecute - from their point of view you didn't supply evidence of your railcard, so they were justified in following that up.
Feel free to post a redacted draft on here for comment.

1. He gave me alternative tickets to use and took mine away (I suppose to use as evidence). This is the first time that I've ever had any issues with them though.
2. Trewhella is my next door neighbours house, so I guess that we share the same postcode. I did go over to theirs and enquire as to whether they'd received anything and apparently they hadn't (this is questionable though as the husband was acting quite sheepish towards me, but this is just speculation of course). This also begs the question of, how did I receive the court summons? It has the same incorrect address, as does the notice for the hearing date change.

I understand that they're just following procedure, it's just a shame that it's gone this far as a result of admin error on their part. I'll be sure to post a draft in for you guys to critique!

 

[111-111-1]

Some postmen especially where they have a regular patch at noticing errors and placing the post in the address it is meant for rather than the one on the front of the envelope, or maybe the neighbour done the decent thing and pushed it through your door.

 

[MotCO]

Just a thought about why the out of Court settlement did not halt the legal process. Was there only one ocasion when you were stopped, or were there two separate occasions? Does the Court Summons state the same date and details as the out of Court settlement?

 

[Realfish]

Some postmen especially where they have a regular patch at noticing errors and placing the post in the address it is meant for rather than the one on the front of the envelope, or maybe the neighbour done the decent thing and pushed it through your door.

Indeed.

I was wondering how GWR would have addressed the letter to an existing named property but which wasn't the one you gave them. But of course, if they had the postcode and the inspectors lousy handwriting, they might well have used the Royal Mail postcode finder, which produces the list of names properties for that postcode. Trenwheal appears immediately before Trewhella, and my money is on someone choosing the wrong (albeit similar) house name.

Train Operating Companies have an agreed procedure to deal with the situation that you found yourself in. For some reason (seemingly an admin error), it failed. If you held a valid railcard, my view is that GWR should rewind and start again, giving you the chance to show that you did have a valid railcard and reverse the out of court settlement that you made.

I am troubled that there is a live summons. '30907's' advice to contact the court seems sensible.

 

[WesternLancer]

Surely the OP should have been given the chance to use the '1 occasion per year' , where you can forget your railcard and submit proof later for any refund of extra money paid at an inspection

From the 16-25 Railcard FAQ's but assume this applies to other railcards:

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?
A:

If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay of notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

 

[Brissle Girl]

They did, but it went to the wrong address and was never seen by the OP.

 

[Flyxolydian]

Just a thought about why the out of Court settlement did not halt the legal process. Was there only one ocasion when you were stopped, or were there two separate occasions? Does the Court Summons state the same date and details as the out of Court settlement?

There was only the one occasion. The timeline from the original incident is as follows:

11th October - Ticket bought, and interviewed on train with intent of providing evidence at a later date.
6th March - Letter received with court summons for the date of 7th April. Settlement was paid on the same day with an email receipt from GWR.
25th March - Letter received with a notice for a new date of hearing for the 30th June.

That's all that's happened. I suspect that GWR may not have notified the court that the case had been settled out of court, as I've no other notion as to why I'd receive a letter with an updated hearing.
There's inconsistencies with the alleged price of the ticket as well. I'd paid £4.80 for the return, meaning that the original price would be around £7.20. First have claimed the outstanding amount to be £11.80, and the ticket inspector had claimed even more with the price being £16.60! I can't work out where they got these prices from.

*edit* According to my statement, I was charged £6.80, not £4.80. How on earth does that work, as the price stated on the ticket is £4.80.

 

[Haywain]

any advice is appreciated!

Contact the court by all means, but they are not going to close the case on your say so. I suspect they will simply advise you to enter a not guilty plea to delay the hearing. Also contact the same address that provided confirmation to you that the matter would be closed, advising that it hasn't been - do this separately from any complaint to customer services.

 

[WesternLancer]

There was only the one occasion. The timeline from the original incident is as follows:

11th October - Ticket bought, and interviewed on train with intent of providing evidence at a later date.
6th March - Letter received with court summons for the date of 7th April. Settlement was paid on the same day with an email receipt from GWR.
25th March - Letter received with a notice for a new date of hearing for the 30th June.

That's all that's happened. I suspect that GWR may not have notified the court that the case had been settled out of court, as I've no other notion as to why I'd receive a letter with an updated hearing.
There's inconsistencies with the alleged price of the ticket as well. I'd paid £4.80 for the return, meaning that the original price would be around £7.20. First have claimed the outstanding amount to be £11.80, and the ticket inspector had claimed even more with the price being £16.60! I can't work out where they got these prices from.

*edit* According to my statement, I was charged £6.80, not £4.80. How on earth does that work, as the price stated on the ticket is £4.80.

A) Just ref the prices you were quotes - cross check on here:
http://www.brfares.com/#home

Can you recall the tinme of day you were travelleing - people here can advise on what the corect fare would have been given the ocnfusing rangwe of options a St Erth to Truro search throws up if you are not fully familair witht he intriccies of the railway ticketign system!

The prices shown are before the app;lication of the 34% railcard discount

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=SER&dest=TRU

I suspect you bought an Off Peak Day Rtn at £7.50 then discounted with the railcard

However, as the incident happened in October 2019 then the fare would have been the fare that applied before the Jan 2020 fares increase, so a bit less than £7.50 I suspect.

If re-charging you on the train a member of staff could / would have charged you the rate for an Anytime Single or Anytime Return I would have thought (ie you may have lost the ability to pay off peak fare rate) IIRC St Erth has a staffed ticket office so that would apply with regards to that.

B) You OK what to write to First / GWR? - basically the blame needs to lie with them for
i) staff member having poor handwriting such that back office staff could not read it - not your fault
ii) back office staff then sending correspondence to the wrong address which resulted in case escalation to court - again not your fault

This is good case for the Ombudsman I would think when / if no joy from their customer services, but you may also want to enlist your MP (with a view to your MP writing to GWR to ask them to urgently review your case) since you are being wrongly treated with court action as a result of their error. But you need to write to GWR asking for what you want them to do and then you can send a copy of that to your MP if you want to enlist their help - gives them something to go on.

 

[30907]

Re the letter received 25 March: all Magistrates' Court hearings will just have been postponed because of CoVid19.
The list of GWR cases for 7 April will not have been updated at that stage (I assume for efficiency it would be finalised much nearer the booked date) so the letters will have gone out automatically based on the original list.
On reflection I don't think there is too much cause for concern.

 

[Haywain]

Re the letter received 25 March: all Magistrates' Court hearings will just have been postponed because of CoVid19.
The list of GWR cases for 7 April will not have been updated at that stage (I assume for efficiency it would be finalised much nearer the booked date) so the letters will have gone out automatically based on the original list.

The OP stated that the 25th March letter gave a new hearing date.

25th March - Letter received with a notice for a new date of hearing for the 30th June.

 

[30907]

The OP stated that the 25th March letter gave a new hearing date.

Sorry, but that's what I meant: the original hearing has been postponed from 7 April; as of 23 March his case was still in the system which had not been updated to take the out of court settlement into account.
I wouldn't expect the prosecutor to update their file in dribs and drabs, but to review all the cases in the 7 April file at one go just before the appropriate deadline.

 

[Flyxolydian]

Sorry, but that's what I meant: the original hearing has been postponed from 7 April; as of 23 March his case was still in the system which had not been updated to take the out of court settlement into account.
I wouldn't expect the prosecutor to update their file in dribs and drabs, but to review all the cases in the 7 April file at one go just before the appropriate deadline.

I'd like that to be the case, as it'd be one less thing to sort out.
Either way, priority at the moment seems to be to send a well written complaint off to GWR, but I'll post a draft here first for everyone to view/critique.

 

[Flyxolydian]

Ok, so here's my first draft of the letter (with provided image). The idea was to provide pictorial evidence to back up the letter, but I'm not sure how effective it is at this stage:

Dear GWR

I am writing in regards to case [] involving the incident of [] where I had mistakenly purchased a ticket with a 26-30 railcard discount, whilst leaving my phone at home. I was interviewed by the ticket inspector and subsequently cautioned after being informed that I would be able to provide evidence that I did in fact own said railcard at a later date.

I received no further correspondence from GWR until receipt of an undated court summons on the [], with the option of paying an out of court settlement within 7 days. Upon review of the court document & relevant evidence that was provided, I found that errors had been made in regards to my address, and to the ticket price.

Attached is a photo that shows photocopies of the tickets, the notebook and witness statement of the ticket inspector (with my correct address on them), and subsequent documents sent by GWR that have an incorrect home address. Because of this error, I never received a follow-up letter from GWR and was never given a chance to prove that I did indeed possess a 26-30 railcard, and that it was an honest mistake as opposed to acting with malicious intent. I understand that the writing of the inspector makes it hard to make out my house name, but I was also asked to write my home address down myself, and that is very clearly legible (as seen in the attached picture). The address that the letters had been sent to is that of my neighbour, but when I asked them about receiving any letters I was told that they hadn't.
Given that the letter was undated and that I was given a short period in which to settle, I chose to pay with the intent of resolving this afterwards.

As a result of the error of sending any follow-up letters to the wrong address, thereby giving me no chance to prove my possession of a valid railcard at the time, wrongfully leading to the issuing of a court summons and/or settlement, I would like to request a full refund of the settlement [] and the option to provide evidence that at the time of [], I did in fact have a valid railcard.

The top row of the attached photo shows the witness statement and notepad of the ticket inspector, and the tickets used on the day of []. The bottom row shows examples of the incorrect delivery address on the court document. Important information is bordered in red.

Kind regards

[]


Thoughts?

 

[some bloke]

Flyxolydian, would you like to remove all identifying details?

 

[some bloke]

The lower middle document says you can email if you forgot your railcard. Is that not the letter which the inspector said you would get? I'm guessing the hidden part says something like "proof".

 

[30907]

The lower middle document says you can email if you forgot your railcard. Is that not the letter which the inspector said you would get? I'm guessing the hidden part says something like "proof".

Following on: when was this "Pre-court settlement offer" received? Was it 6 March with the documents you have uploaded on either side, or at an earlier date? And did you respond to it In any way?

 

[Haywain]

Thoughts?

Too long.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok, so here's my first draft of the letter (with provided image). The idea was to provide pictorial evidence to back up the letter, but I'm not sure how effective it is at this stage:

Dear GWR

I am writing in regards to case GWR241915 involving the incident of 11th October where I had mistakenly purchased a ticket with a 26-30 railcard discount, whilst leaving my phone at home. I was interviewed by the ticket inspector and subsequently cautioned after being informed that I would be able to provide evidence that I did in fact own said railcard at a later date.

I received no further correspondence from GWR until receipt of an undated court summons on the 6th of March, with the option of paying an out of court settlement within 7 days. Upon review of the court document & relevant evidence that was provided, I found that errors had been made in regards to my address, and to the ticket price.

Attached is a photo that shows photocopies of the tickets, the notebook and witness statement of the ticket inspector (with my correct address on them), and subsequent documents sent by GWR that have an incorrect home address. Because of this error, I never received a follow-up letter from GWR and was never given a chance to prove that I did indeed possess a 26-30 railcard, and that it was an honest mistake as opposed to acting with malicious intent. I understand that the writing of the inspector makes it hard to make out my house name, but I was also asked to write my home address down myself, and that is very clearly legible (as seen in the attached picture). The address that the letters had been sent to is that of my neighbour, but when I asked them about receiving any letters I was told that they hadn't.
Given that the letter was undated and that I was given a short period in which to settle, I chose to pay with the intent of resolving this afterwards.

As a result of the error of sending any follow-up letters to the wrong address, thereby giving me no chance to prove my possession of a valid railcard at the time, wrongfully leading to the issuing of a court summons and/or settlement, I would like to request a full refund of the settlement (£171.80) and the option to provide evidence that at the time of 11th October, I did in fact have a valid railcard.

The top row of the attached photo shows the witness statement and notepad of the ticket inspector, and the tickets used on the day of 11th October. The bottom row shows examples of the incorrect delivery address on the court document. Important information is bordered in red.

Kind regards

Conor Ian Foster


Thoughts?

Maybe shorten the stuff about the wrong address, 3rd para - eg down to 'It is clear that you sent the request for my evidence that I held a valid Railcard, and subsequent vital correspondence, to an incorrect address, despite me making efforts to ensure your on train staff recorded my address accurately and as a consequence I was never given a chance to proove...' or some such

Also you need to point out it was a digital railcard held on your phone and you left your phone at home in error, but only realised when asked to show it by the inspector - 1st para

BUT most importantly you need to end up with a clear request for what you want them to do / outcome you want which you could number for added clarity eg:

'I am therefore requesting that you
a) withdraw the threat of court action immediately and confirm in writing that you have done this
b) accept the proof I attach that I had a valid railcard and allow me the grace period of an instance of forgetting the card as I believe the Terms and Conditions permit
c) refund the money (£.....) I paid on xx date that I feel that I should not have been charged.
If you are unable to do these things I would appreciate a clear written explanation of the reasons why not.'

or some equiv if I have that list correct of course!

 

[SteveM70]

BUT most importantly you need to end up with a clear request for what you want them to do / outcome you want which you could number for added clarity eg:

And for each of them (and any other request) a reasonable date by which you want them to reply

 

[Flyxolydian]

Flyxolydian, would you like to remove all identifying details?

Done, thanks for the heads up!

The lower middle document says you can email if you forgot your railcard. Is that not the letter which the inspector said you would get? I'm guessing the hidden part says something like "proof".

Yes, that's the letter that I was supposed to receive. The part not shown provides a link that I could've used to send proof that I owned a railcard at the time.

Following on: when was this "Pre-court settlement offer" received? Was it 6 March with the documents you have uploaded on either side, or at an earlier date? And did you respond to it In any way?

The pre-court settlement offer was received at the same time as the court summons, in the same document. I paid the settlement on the same day that I received the summons, and have an email receipt as proof.

Maybe shorten the stuff about the wrong address, 3rd para - eg down to 'It is clear that you sent the request for my evidence that I held a valid Railcard, and subsequent vital correspondence, to an incorrect address, despite me making efforts to ensure your on train staff recorded my address accurately and as a consequence I was never given a chance to proove...' or some such

Also you need to point out it was a digital railcard held on your phone and you left your phone at home in error, but only realised when asked to show it by the inspector - 1st para

BUT most importantly you need to end up with a clear request for what you want them to do / outcome you want which you could number for added clarity eg:

'I am therefore requesting that you
a) withdraw the threat of court action immediately and confirm in writing that you have done this
b) accept the proof I attach that I had a valid railcard and allow me the grace period of an instance of forgetting the card as I believe the Terms and Conditions permit
c) refund the money (£.....) I paid on xx date that I feel that I should not have been charged.
If you are unable to do these things I would appreciate a clear written explanation of the reasons why not.'

or some equiv if I have that list correct of course!

Right, I'll make the changes suggested & put up the new version.
My only concern is that if/when they ask for proof, my railcard expired in January, and I haven't renewed it yet (there hasn't been any need to, as I haven't made any long journeys on the train for a while). The screenshot on the app does give a date of when the card expired (again, January, 3 months after this incident happened), but I'm not sure whether that would be adequate proof.

 

[WesternLancer]

Done, thanks for the heads up!



Yes, that's the letter that I was supposed to receive. The part not shown provides a link that I could've used to send proof that I owned a railcard at the time.



The pre-court settlement offer was received at the same time as the court summons, in the same document. I paid the settlement on the same day that I received the summons, and have an email receipt as proof.



Right, I'll make the changes suggested & put up the new version.
My only concern is that if/when they ask for proof, my railcard expired in January, and I haven't renewed it yet (there hasn't been any need to, as I haven't made any long journeys on the train for a while). The screenshot on the app does give a date of when the card expired (again, January, 3 months after this incident happened), but I'm not sure whether that would be adequate proof.

My only concern is that if/when they ask for proof, my railcard expired in January, and I haven't renewed it yet (there hasn't been any need to, as I haven't made any long journeys on the train for a while). The screenshot on the app does give a date of when the card expired (again, January, 3 months after this incident happened), but I'm not sure whether that would be adequate proof.

My view is that it WOULD be adequate proof, plus this is all GWRs fault so they should not then argue about that (and I think the central railcard database could be interrogated by them if they need to) - and lets remember that if they are unhelpful in their response to this the case can go to the Ombudsman who would then take an independent view on if you had the railcard. Juts make sure you have a clear screenshot that you can keep and use as required now and in any future stages of this.

Hope that helps.

 

[Western Sunset]

As long as your Railcard was valid at the time you travelled, that's all that matters.

Best of luck, by the way. Though luck shouldn't really come into it if all you've presented here is as you say it is.

 

[Flyxolydian]

Ok, here's an updated version:

Dear GWR

I am writing in regards to case[] involving the incident of [] where I had purchased a ticket with a 26-30 railcard discount. It wasn't until I was asked for my railcard on the train that I realised that I had left my phone (my railcard being digital) at home by mistake. I was interviewed by the ticket inspector and subsequently cautioned after being informed that I would be able to provide evidence of the ownership of a railcard at a later date.

I received no further correspondence from GWR until receipt of a court summons on the [], with the option of paying an out of court settlement within 7 days. Upon review of the court document & relevant evidence that was provided, I found that errors had been made in regards to my address.

Attached is a picture that provides evidence that any follow-up documents from the interview were sent to the wrong address, despite my efforts to ensure that your train staff had recorded my address accurately on the day. As a result of this, I never received the opportunity to prove that I did own a 26-30 railcard. Given that the letter was also undated and that I was given a short period in which to settle, I chose to pay the settlement and received an email stating that the case was closed. However, I've now received another court summons with an updated date for the [], despite settling.

Given this, I am requesting that you:
a) Accept the proof I attach that I had a valid railcard at the time and allow me the grace period of an instance of forgetting the card as I believe the Terms and Conditions permit.
b) Refund the money [] I paid on [] that I feel that I should not have been charged.
c) Withdraw any court action against me, and confirm in writing that you have done so.

If you are unable to do this, I would appreciate a clear written explanation of the reasons why not.

Kind regards

[]

*note* any identifying info has been blanked out on the attached picture. I just need it checked to ensure that everything is legible, as it should be at a high enough resolution.

 

[30907]

I think you need to spell out in paragraph 2 that the letter (7) dated 23 October 2019 was not received by you at that time.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok, here's an updated version:

Dear GWR

I am writing in regards to case[] involving the incident of [] where I had purchased a ticket with a 26-30 railcard discount. It wasn't until I was asked for my railcard on the train that I realised that I had left my phone (my railcard being digital) at home by mistake. I was interviewed by the ticket inspector and subsequently cautioned after being informed that I would be able to provide evidence of the ownership of a railcard at a later date.

I received no further correspondence from GWR until receipt of a court summons on the [], with the option of paying an out of court settlement within 7 days. Upon review of the court document & relevant evidence that was provided, I found that errors had been made in regards to my address.

Attached is a picture that provides evidence that any follow-up documents from the interview were sent to the wrong address, despite my efforts to ensure that your train staff had recorded my address accurately on the day. As a result of this, I never received the opportunity to prove that I did own a 26-30 railcard. Given that the letter was also undated and that I was given a short period in which to settle, I chose to pay the settlement and received an email stating that the case was closed. However, I've now received another court summons with an updated date for the [], despite settling.

Given this, I am requesting that you:
a) Accept the proof I attach that I had a valid railcard at the time and allow me the grace period of an instance of forgetting the card as I believe the Terms and Conditions permit.
b) Refund the money [] I paid on [] that I feel that I should not have been charged.
c) Withdraw any court action against me, and confirm in writing that you have done so.

If you are unable to do this, I would appreciate a clear written explanation of the reasons why not.

Kind regards

[]

*note* any identifying info has been blanked out on the attached picture. I just need it checked to ensure that everything is legible, as it should be at a high enough resolution.

Looks pretty good to me - clear and concise. I do agree with 30907's point which is well made.

 

[Flyxolydian]

Right, I'll make that change and then send it off. Thanks for the helps everyone, it's much appreciated!

 

[Western Sunset]

Please let us know the outcome if you feel you can.