GWR Dec 19 timetable

[PHILIPE]

I've been looking on Realtime Trains to see what changes there will be for my local station Sandhurst. I have noticed that it shows three less trains to Reading than the current weekday timetable. I can't see any services corresponding to the current 08:41, 10:13 or 23:23.

How accurate is Realtime Trains likely to be, this far in advance, for the December 2019 timetable?

There is still tidying up of the Timetable being done at this stage and GWR say should be available in the middle of September, in other words 12 weeks before the start

 

[RichT54]

There is still tidying up of the Timetable being done at this stage and GWR say should be available in the middle of September, in other words 12 weeks before the start

Thank you

 

[Deepgreen]

I've been looking on Realtime Trains to see what changes there will be for my local station Sandhurst. I have noticed that it shows three less trains to Reading than the current weekday timetable. I can't see any services corresponding to the current 08:41, 10:13 or 23:23.

How accurate is Realtime Trains likely to be, this far in advance, for the December 2019 timetable?

I can only hope it's not complete, as the removal of the morning trains you mention means that my station, Betchworth, has nothing westbound between 0628 and 0943!

Assuming for the moment that we don't lose any trains, the line's still being denied the franchise commitments of 3tph, and the repeated promises from GWR of 769s, with their extra coach per unit than the 3 car 'Turbos' (and 2 more than the increasingly frequent 2 car units!).

 

[JonathanH]

I can only hope it's not complete, as the removal of the morning trains you mention means that my station, Betchworth, has nothing westbound between 0628 and 0943!

It is not in any way complete - it is just provisional information that happens to be in the open data feed on which Realtimetrains (and other similar sites) relies. GWR / Network Rail are clearly still working on it.

Wait for a paper timetable or information on the GWR website before relying on times - it is still more than 12 weeks to go before the timetable change and sometimes new times are not even confirmed until a later point.

 

[Deepgreen]

As the GWR map showing the broad changes to the times from December does not include any notes for the NDL, I assume no change (or nothing as major as added or removed trains).

 

[JonathanH]

As the GWR map showing the broad changes to the times from December does not include any notes for the NDL, I assume no change (or nothing as major as added or removed trains).

The times of NDL trains are changing (by minutes rather than in a wholesale change kind of way) as discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/3tph-on-north-downs-line.140595/page-19#post-4142346.

Same number of services but a few minutes inserted in each schedule to accommodate the timing profile for 769s (not necessarily their actual performance profile) with times at the Redhill / Gatwick end broadly (but not necessarily fixed).

 

[30907]

Shame really... As a local, I don't mind the service gaps as much as the fact that the first train doesn't depart from Newquay on a weekday until 10:13. During the winter timetable, there is an earlier 07:47 service which would be a lot more useful on weekdays I think.

The earlier train runs on Saturday mornings throughout the year, I believe to connect out of the sleeper. It did run one year during the week, but carried virtually no-one, so was nicked to strengthen services into Plymouth IIRC.
This makes Deepgreen's assumption wrong - the line doesnt cater for commuter traffic all year round, because there isn't a significant flow to serve competitively (Quintrel Downs to Newquay perhaps?).

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm not sure if anyone's got the Modern Railways magazine that has a GWR section in it (the July or August 2019 one) but from looking at that, it looks as though the only diesel trains to regularly use London Paddington are a Turbo on the first working from Paddington to Greenford and the Class 57's on the sleeper services.

It also says a 12-car Class 387 17:46 from Paddington to Didcot (calling at Reading and Didcot only) will be introduced. It will be useful if the existing 16:36 is retained but a 17:46 I hope people have common sense to use rather than potentially fight for a seat on an IET.

Personally for me a 12-car Class 387 at 17:46 to Didcot Parkway means I can go arrive in London around say 11am.

I'm told and have seen on the notice boards at Paddington by some of the ticket gates (ticket restriction boards) that all Electrostars are Off-Peak).

I wouldn't be surprised if GWR soon start advertising Reading and Didcot Parkway as pick up only in the timetables on say 1 or 2 Peak IET's that might run very close to a Class 387 to / from Didcot, Reading and Paddington.

The earlier train runs on Saturday mornings throughout the year, I believe to connect out of the sleeper. It did run one year during the week, but carried virtually no-one, so was nicked to strengthen services into Plymouth IIRC.
This makes Deepgreen's assumption wrong - the line doesnt cater for commuter traffic all year round, because there isn't a significant flow to serve competitively (Quintrel Downs to Newquay perhaps?).

 

[jimm]

That's staggeringly bad! It seems to assume that summer use is entirely tourist-based with no local demand for peak trains at all (although surely some tourists want to start their return journey far earlier than 1013?!), while winter use does have a local focus. On the face of it, that seems odd.

Have you ever travelled on the Newquay branch? It takes 50 minutes for a dmu to travel just under 21 miles and deposits passengers at Par, not St Austell or Truro, or anywhere anyone might actually want to go for work/college/shopping. As 30907 says, passenger numbers using the line outside the summer season are very limited for that reason.

I'm told and have seen on the notice boards at Paddington by some of the ticket gates (ticket restriction boards) that all Electrostars are Off-Peak).

I wouldn't be surprised if GWR soon start advertising Reading and Didcot Parkway as pick up only in the timetables on say 1 or 2 Peak IET's that might run very close to a Class 387 to / from Didcot, Reading and Paddington.

Ticket restrictions are another thing yet to be finalised for December, as the timetable changes will certainly affect things like ticket easements in places, so I would suggest you check closer to the time, rather than assuming what applies now will still be the case in December - especially with TfL taking over lots of the duties currently worked by GWR's 387s.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure if anyone's got the Modern Railways magazine that has a GWR section in it (the July or August 2019 one) but from looking at that, it looks as though the only diesel trains to regularly use London Paddington are a Turbo on the first working from Paddington to Greenford and the Class 57's on the sleeper services.

No, as noted upthread, the Greenford unit has to get back to Oxford in the evening and the last Oxford train is also a Turbo.

These workings are:

2G65 2155 Greenford to London Paddington
5D45 21+22 Maidenhead to London Paddington (the Bourne End branch unit)
join to form
1D46 2315 London Paddington to Oxford

1P47 2305 Oxford to London Paddington
1D48 0030 London Paddington to Oxford

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not sure if anyone's got the Modern Railways magazine that has a GWR section in it (the July or August 2019 one) but from looking at that, it looks as though the only diesel trains to regularly use London Paddington are a Turbo on the first working from Paddington to Greenford and the Class 57's on the sleeper services.

It also says a 12-car Class 387 17:46 from Paddington to Didcot (calling at Reading and Didcot only) will be introduced. It will be useful if the existing 16:36 is retained but a 17:46 I hope people have common sense to use rather than potentially fight for a seat on an IET...

There are other fast down EMU services that were listed back in post #145, much discussion then followed about actual lengths...

 

[FenMan]

I've been looking on Realtime Trains to see what changes there will be for my local station Sandhurst. I have noticed that it shows three less trains to Reading than the current weekday timetable. I can't see any services corresponding to the current 08:41, 10:13 or 23:23.

How accurate is Realtime Trains likely to be, this far in advance, for the December 2019 timetable?

To add to the previous posts, it looks as though Crowthorne, Sandhurst, Farnborough North and Ash will be gaining decent daytime connections for travel to Waterloo via Guildford, as the Reading to Redhill stoppers arrive in Guildford at least 5 minutes (i.e. the minimum connection time) before the xx:49 departure to Waterloo, arriving xx:22.

 

[Envoy]

I'm not sure if anyone's got the Modern Railways magazine that has a GWR section in it (the July or August 2019 one) but from looking at that, it looks as though the only diesel trains to regularly use London Paddington are a Turbo on the first working from Paddington to Greenford and the Class 57's on the sleeper services.

It also says a 12-car Class 387 17:46 from Paddington to Didcot (calling at Reading and Didcot only) will be introduced. It will be useful if the existing 16:36 is retained but a 17:46 I hope people have common sense to use rather than potentially fight for a seat on an IET.

Personally for me a 12-car Class 387 at 17:46 to Didcot Parkway means I can go arrive in London around say 11am.

I'm told and have seen on the notice boards at Paddington by some of the ticket gates (ticket restriction boards) that all Electrostars are Off-Peak).

I wouldn't be surprised if GWR soon start advertising Reading and Didcot Parkway as pick up only in the timetables on say 1 or 2 Peak IET's that might run very close to a Class 387 to / from Didcot, Reading and Paddington.

If the Electrostars become off-peak - won’t poorer people on the IET’s from further out west just buy tickets to Didcot and then change to an Electrostar service (via split ticket) in order to save money - although it will take them a bit longer and they will have to sit on an even harder seat than the Class 800’s?

 

[JonathanH]

If the Electrostars become off-peak - won’t poorer people on the IET’s from further out west just buy tickets to Didcot and then change to an Electrostar service (via split ticket) in order to save money - although it will take them a bit longer and they will have to sit on an even harder seat than the Class 800’s?

That is already the case - it is only in the evening peak when all Electrostar services are off-peak from Paddington (although of course that is only to destinations in the London & South East area - a blanket restriction applies to tickets beyond Didcot / Bedwyn, Electrostar from Paddington or not)

Plenty of thrifty people split tickets at Didcot as there is no evening restriction for tickets to there.

Suspect nothing will change until the blanket evening peak restriction that will result from the introduction of RDG's fares reform proposals.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I know it's a little off topic but I'm guessing the 16:36 London to Cheltenham Spa train replaced the 16:36 London to Didcot that was once a Class 387?

Assuming yes, that sort of explains why the 17:46 from London Paddington to Reading and Didcot Parkway only is being introduced - 12 coaches (so a 387) according to my August 2019 Modern Railways magazine.

 

[Envoy]

The peak time fares on weekdays from south Wales to London are so high that I bet a lot of people drive part of the way only to travel by train for the second half of the journey. No wonder the M4 is so full! You would think that with this new fleet offering more seats, that they would be able to offer lower fares even in the peaks? If people start buying electric cars they will have much lower costs per mile v petrol/diesel and certainly the trains.

 

[GW43125]

I know it's a little off topic but I'm guessing the 16:36 London to Cheltenham Spa train replaced the 16:36 London to Didcot that was once a Class 387?

It did. The 16:36 was a 9car 800 for well over a month before the change too.
The 16:36 Padd-Didcot and a Swindon-Cheltenham turbo stopper were combined into the 16:36 as that little turbo from Swindon was usually wedged.

Hence why there'll be a couple of 10cars to Cheltenham in the peaks but other than that, mainly 5car.

 

[JonathanH]

You would think that with this new fleet offering more seats, that they would be able to offer lower fares even in the peaks?

Er, that is very unlikely given the way the IEP fleet has been procured and the amount of money spent on electrification. If anything, I suspect the fares need to go up quicker.

 

[CharlesR]

Hence why there'll be a couple of 10cars to Cheltenham in the peaks but other than that, mainly 5car.

Cheltenham will see 9cars and 5cars for now.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Cheltenham will see 9cars and 5cars for now.

And 10 car trains from December.

 

[Weekender]

And 10 car trains from December.

Does that mean they won’t be calling at Gloucester, which I understand can’t take 10 car trains due to poor signal placement?

 

[Mintona]

Does that mean they won’t be calling at Gloucester, which I understand can’t take 10 car trains due to poor signal placement?

A 10 car IET can call at Gloucester but can only use Platform 4.

 

[800002]

Does that mean they won’t be calling at Gloucester, which I understand can’t take 10 car trains due to poor signal placement?

Surely, the signal was there before the 10 IEP Train came along?

 

[CharlesR]

A 10 car IET can call at Gloucester but can only use Platform 4.

And 10 car trains from December.

I have been assured that they will not be running along the South or North Cotswolds line unless at a last minute change. If you have any evidence to suggest this that would be great, but good luck to the signallers being limited to just 1 platform that it will occupy for 8+ minutes.

 

[Mintona]

The following trains are booked ten coaches on the Kemble line from December.

1G06 06.48 Cheltenham Spa - London Paddington

1G23 16.30 London Paddington - Cheltenham Spa
1G27 18.30 London Paddington - Cheltenham Spa.

 

[Mintona]

On the north Cotswolds line there is just one train booked for ten coaches from December.

1P11 05.11 Worcester Shrub Hill - London Paddington.

 

[ABB125]

The following trains are booked ten coaches on the Kemble line from December.

1G06 06.48 Cheltenham Spa - London Paddington

1G23 16.30 London Paddington - Cheltenham Spa
1G27 18.30 London Paddington - Cheltenham Spa.

Out of interest, are the return workings ten coaches as well, or do they split (with one unit going to a depot perhaps)?

 

[coppercapped]

The peak time fares on weekdays from south Wales to London are so high that I bet a lot of people drive part of the way only to travel by train for the second half of the journey. No wonder the M4 is so full! You would think that with this new fleet offering more seats, that they would be able to offer lower fares even in the peaks? If people start buying electric cars they will have much lower costs per mile v petrol/diesel and certainly the trains.

Eh? How does that work then?

If one comes from south Wales by car to pick up a train to London, then the stations where it would be possible are Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Didcot or Reading.

Bristol Parkway station was designed to be an easily useable interchange between rail and the adjacent motorway network. The other stations and their car parks are some way from the M4: Swindon is some 4 1/2 miles from the western motorway junction and one has to drive through the town and the one way system; Didcot is over 12 miles from the M4 along the very busy A34 and Reading is over 4 miles from the M4 via the A33 and the congested town centre. There is a charge for using any of these car parks.

Are you seriously suggesting that a significant proportion of the number of cars on the M4 are made up by people travelling from south Wales towards London using the motorway for some of the journey? I agree that Bristol Parkway could well be used for such a purpose, but only a very few would even think of using the other stations.

Time is also a very important consideration, and as the saying goes 'Time is Money'.

 

[Mintona]

Out of interest, are the return workings ten coaches as well, or do they split (with one unit going to a depot perhaps)?

They aren’t listed as such. They are showing as five coaches which I presume means they will be splitting at Cheltenham.

 

[ABB125]

They aren’t listed as such. They are showing as five coaches which I presume means they will be splitting at Cheltenham.

Ok, thanks