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GWR Dec 19 timetable

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FenMan

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I'm scratching my head at the revised weekday timetable for the North Downs Line currently showing in Realtimetrains. There are some obvious gaps, indicating a work in progress. However it appears there's now an hour gap between the 6:54 and 7:49 arrivals at Reading. Both sets stabled at Redhill overnight are accounted for, so this gap could only be covered by an extremely early Shalford extra starting from Reading, but there's no sign of that.

The greater puzzle is the binning of a clockface timetable for the Redhill stoppers ex-Reading. From 10am to 4pm these are now showing as departing at 55, 59, 53, 51, 57 and 00 minutes past the hour. Er, are we heading back to the 1980s?
 
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freetoview33

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It's odd considering the plan is to extend that service to Yate! Unless under the new timetable there is no longer enough capacity at Parkway to deal with a terminating service.
 
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I'm scratching my head at the revised weekday timetable for the North Downs Line currently showing in Realtimetrains. There are some obvious gaps, indicating a work in progress. However it appears there's now an hour gap between the 6:54 and 7:49 arrivals at Reading. Both sets stabled at Redhill overnight are accounted for, so this gap could only be covered by an extremely early Shalford extra starting from Reading, but there's no sign of that.

A North Downs arrival within that time would likely form a circa 073x return service and while no such service is currently shown, a 5O60 ECS from Reading Traincare Depot to form it is
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y97181/2019/12/18/advanced

So it looks like no arrival, but there is a return departure. I think that you are right to say that it looks like the North Downs timetable is work in progress, and currently there is a gap of 5 hours in Gatwick afternoon arrivals, so it is probably way to early to draw any real conclusions with the information available on RealTimeTrains at present.
 

6026KingJohn

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Apologies if this has already been covered, I had a quick look through and couldn't see it.
From December the Barnstaple line is due to be self-contained using 3 coach 158s. RTT shows this as running between Barnstaple and St. James' Park.
I think St. James' Park up platform is only two coaches in length so -
1) Can you terminate a three coach train at a two coach platform?
2) Do GWR 158s have SDO (which would help)?
3) Will somebody at GWR suddenly realise this and change it to Barnstaple-Exeter Central instead? (Obviously still running to Exmouth Junction to reverse)
 

JN114

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1) Yes
2) No, local door only would have to be used
3) No, there’s no reason not to run to St James’ Park.
 

freetoview33

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Apologies if this has already been covered, I had a quick look through and couldn't see it.
From December the Barnstaple line is due to be self-contained using 3 coach 158s. RTT shows this as running between Barnstaple and St. James' Park.
I think St. James' Park up platform is only two coaches in length so -
1) Can you terminate a three coach train at a two coach platform?
2) Do GWR 158s have SDO (which would help)?
3) Will somebody at GWR suddenly realise this and change it to Barnstaple-Exeter Central instead? (Obviously still running to Exmouth Junction to reverse)
Plus it is due to have a platform extension next year anyway!
 

Mitchell Hurd

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According to the 52-page GW Franchise online book I read months ago, services to and from Barnstaple were terminating at Exeter Central. Does St. James Park mean less congestion?
 

PHILIPE

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According to the 52-page GW Franchise online book I read months ago, services to and from Barnstaple were terminating at Exeter Central. Does St. James Park mean less congestion?

Sensible thing to do as they would have to run to Exmouth Jn to cross over anyway
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Apparently the GWR December 2019 timetable is now available to view online - only trouble is it gives me the current timetable.
 

PHILIPE

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Apparently the GWR December 2019 timetable is now available to view online - only trouble is it gives me the current timetable.

That is the previous Timetable carried forward to be edited prior to the new Timetable which, GWR say, will be released to the public on September 22nd
 

PHILIPE

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That is the previous Timetable carried forward to be edited prior to the new Timetable which, GWR say, will be released to the public on September 22nd


I think we may have been on different wavelengths here. I was thinking of viewing the open data such as RTT but I gather that it is the public Timetable you are searching for. These are released 12 weeks prior to the start and, as GWR have said in answer to queries, will be today. Booking search engines should also be available from today.
 

RichT54

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https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/timetable-2019

Update on the website where you can search a station name and the clear improvements it will be seeing as well.

I notice that the entries for Farnborough North, Gomshall, North Camp, Sandhurst and Shalford include the statement "we expect to introduce refreshed Class 769 trains on this line from May 2020" but it is not mentioned for the other stations on the North Downs Line, or for any other line.
 

JonathanH

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I notice that the entries for Farnborough North, Gomshall, North Camp, Sandhurst and Shalford include the statement "we expect to introduce refreshed Class 769 trains on this line from May 2020" but it is not mentioned for the other stations on the North Downs Line, or for any other line.

Perhaps there should be a footnote on this page somewhere saying something like:

* Despite the improvements elsewhere, services on this route will be less frequent and slower from December 2019.
 

JN114

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Clearly a mistake there then. Unfortunately only familiar with Bristol, HSS and Thames Valley services.

Where’s the mistake? St James Park has always been the plan, and that’s what the website and other online sources such as RTT say.

If you’re suggesting the “change at Exeter Central...” is the mistake; again that’s eminently sensible - better to recommend changing at the much larger station with better facilities; than the tiny 1 coach halt that only sees half the number of trains....
 

freetoview33

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Where’s the mistake? St James Park has always been the plan, and that’s what the website and other online sources such as RTT say.

If you’re suggesting the “change at Exeter Central...” is the mistake; again that’s eminently sensible - better to recommend changing at the much larger station with better facilities; than the tiny 1 coach halt that only sees half the number of trains....
Once the platform ia extended then hopefully it will be fit to use for Football matches. Which is when the extra service comes in handy.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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I'm not sure if it was this thread I mentioned it on but I had a look on trainline and thank goodness GWR are restoring a morning direct service on weekdays from Didcot to Taunton and Exeter St. Davids. It leaves Didcot at 09:41 and gets there at 11:53 as it gets to Bristol Temple Meads around 10:40, waits til 10:49 then calls at Weston-super-Mare (WSM), Taunton and Exeter St. David's.

Instead of the Malvern Hills I'm heading for Exeter instead on the 02/01/20 instead.

As this calls at WSM, is this likely to be 9 cars. I'd rather that for 2 reasons...

1. The First Class Coach K on the 9-car sets has more bigger table seats than in D (5 or 10-car IET's) and K (10-car sets.

2. I don't want to be one of those that finds myself in the wrong set of 5 coaches, assuming the 09:41 from Didcot to Exeter splits at Bristol Temple Meads.

The Exeter to London trains that call at like Castle, Cary, Westbury, Pewsey, Newbury and Reading before Paddington leave at I believe xx:51 as there's a 17:51.

To avoid the 20:12 from Reading being a valid connection, I can cleverly buy an Advance Single for the 17:51 to Reading and have a valid Off-Peak Day Single for the next train from Reading to Didcot around 8pm! By getting the 17:51 (I'll ride on a few Stagecoach Devon buses before having a look round Exeter), I avoid 2 things (compared to the Reading and London trains that come from Paignton / Plymouth / Penzance...

1. Someone refusing to move.

2. Having to rush down the platform because the formation is advertised incorrectly on the platform screen.

Plus I can be in a warm train say 15-20 minutes before departure (17:51 I think comes in at 17:15), 30 if I'm allowed :)!
 

Mitchell Hurd

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1C07 (0902 Paddington) 0941 Didcot Parkway - Exeter SD is indeed planned to split at Bristol TM and thusly would appear to be 2 X 5 car.
http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/16936240/02/01/20

Right. That seems fair and a clever way of ensuring there's one to run an Off-Peak London train.

Hopefully GWR will make sure Coach A is at the front (or if reverse formation - E D C B A at least). I won't be happy if the front 5 are G H J K L or L K J H G either way!

Thanks for the information.
 

800002

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Right. That seems fair and a clever way of ensuring there's one to run an Off-Peak London train.

Hopefully GWR will make sure Coach A is at the front (or if reverse formation - E D C B A at least). I won't be happy if the front 5 are G H J K L or L K J H G either way!

Thanks for the information.
Glad to be of service. Just a little note - that is what appears to happen currently :)

I assume you're booking a reservation in a set coach?
Which I can understand your apprehension and unease about it splitting at Bristol.

Tiger - an online tool - could be useful for travelling from Didcot Parkway. It is currently listing formations and location of 1st class / reservations amendments for the applicable services.
It may (emphasis on may ) assist. I can't qualify the information as accurate, as I'm not in the locale to do a bit a cranking.
Others on the forum may be able to assist in verifying the accuracy of the information.

Tiger - home
Tiger - showing Didcot Parkway 'staff view'
 

FenMan

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I'm scratching my head at the revised weekday timetable for the North Downs Line currently showing in Realtimetrains. There are some obvious gaps, indicating a work in progress. However it appears there's now an hour gap between the 6:54 and 7:49 arrivals at Reading. Both sets stabled at Redhill overnight are accounted for, so this gap could only be covered by an extremely early Shalford extra starting from Reading, but there's no sign of that.

The greater puzzle is the binning of a clockface timetable for the Redhill stoppers ex-Reading. From 10am to 4pm these are now showing as departing at 55, 59, 53, 51, 57 and 00 minutes past the hour. Er, are we heading back to the 1980s?

Well, the North Downs timetable is now appearing on NRE and has the same holes. There are others too, such as no departures from Gatwick between 21:00 and 23:18 and no services departing from Reading between 07:04 to 07:58.
 

JonathanH

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Well, the North Downs timetable is now appearing on NRE and has the same holes. There are others too, such as no departures from Gatwick between 21:00 and 23:18 and no services departing from Reading between 07:04 to 07:58.

Those gaps look likely to be filled - there is an empty stock working for a Redhill train between 07:04 and 07:58 (as noted upthread) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y97181/2019/12/17/advanced and no doubt a train into Gatwick in the gap between 21:00 and 23:18 that isn't yet in the timetable. More concerning is the point you raised above about the gap in Reading arrivals between 06:54 and 07:49.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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I believe the 17:42 from London Paddington to Reading and Didcot only, which I guess was the planned 17:46 according to one of my Modern Railways 2019 magazines (August one I think), will be a 12-coach Class 387. If yes, then that's better as I've not got the hassle of a 9 or 10-coach IET either being 5 coaches (or say Coach B or C changing to H or J) whether as the 387 is like with buses - take a seat and stay there :)!
 

cb00

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I see GWR has barely improved journey times for the Cotswolds Line. 2hr journeys between WOS and PAD were a reality with the HSTs many years ago. About the time that our local MP was Mike Foster and put this issue in his manifesto...

There are some journeys between these station which will still be over 2h30m.

Interesting that with the delay repay scheme being introduced, that GWR seem to have been able to pad their timetable with time to 'recover' from delays.
 

JonathanH

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I see GWR has barely improved journey times for the Cotswolds Line. 2hr journeys between WOS and PAD were a reality with the HSTs many years ago. About the time that our local MP was Mike Foster and put this issue in his manifesto...

There are some journeys between these station which will still be over 2h30m.

Interesting that with the delay repay scheme being introduced, that GWR seem to have been able to pad their timetable with time to 'recover' from delays.

What were you expecting to see that isn't in the plan - surely any time saving was only expected to be a few minutes on most services thanks to faster running into Paddington from Oxford. It isn't as if the Cotswold line has suddenly become suitable for running at higher speeds.
 

cb00

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What were you expecting to see that isn't in the plan - surely any time saving was only expected to be a few minutes on most services thanks to faster running into Paddington from Oxford. It isn't as if the Cotswold line has suddenly become suitable for running at higher speeds.
Yet on most journeys I've been on recently, the IETs have left Cotswolds stations on time and arrived early at the next station, having to then wait until their scheduled departure time. Sometimes the train manager will inform passengers as such and that it's not a delay.

You're right that the Cotswold line hasn't changed, but the IETs' greater acceleration is clearly a benefit as well as the lack of slam doors from the HSTs which used to increase dwell times. I'm surprised that journey times in the Cotswolds weren't reduced more to take account of these facts.
 

jimm

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I see GWR has barely improved journey times for the Cotswolds Line. 2hr journeys between WOS and PAD were a reality with the HSTs many years ago. About the time that our local MP was Mike Foster and put this issue in his manifesto...

There are some journeys between these station which will still be over 2h30m.

Interesting that with the delay repay scheme being introduced, that GWR seem to have been able to pad their timetable with time to 'recover' from delays.

The all of two or three HSTs a day in either direction many years ago were not calling at Worcestershire Parkway, Pershore, Honeybourne, Hanborough and Reading - and there were also far fewer trains all the way to or from London to get in their way. The substantial sums of money generated in fares from the intermediate stations between Worcester and Oxford are what allow Worcester to have the frequency of services to and from London it now enjoys, so given a choice between fast trains for the Worcester market, or getting in the revenue at the intermediate stations, there will only be one winner..

Until the early 1990s, there were no other through trains to or from London the rest of the day, with a change at Oxford the rule. From 1993 until 2004, almost all of the London service was Turbo dmus - things have change a bit since then.

The single-line sections at either end of the Cotswold Line are still there, and the need to be able to timetable trains through those without services getting in each others' way is vital to ensure the timetable is robust and reliable. Lack of reliability was a reason why lots of people from the Worcester area kept claiming it made sense to drive all the way to Warwick Parkway to reach London, despite there being no journey time or cost advantage. Recent improvements in Cotswold Line reliability seem to have resulted in a rise in traffic from Worcester, so no one is going to risk that by implementing a timetable that does not work, however exciting the end-to-end journey times look on paper.

There is nothing much to be gained by raising speed limits, due in large part to the close spacing of the intermediate stations, except perhaps the 75mph between Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh. But even here the 60mph restriction at Aston Magna curve will not change, so any journey time gain would be minimal.

The majority of services in both directions are in the range of 2hrs to 2hrs 15mins, with a couple of sub-2hr journeys as well.

The late afternoon trains out of Worcester are most important for people heading home to the Vale of Evesham and they (and the 05.50 from Paddington in the morning) all cross a series of very busy trains heading in the other direction, which it would not be a good idea to delay, hence the more generous timings and extended dwells in places. The number of people making end to end journeys on those trains is limited. The same goes for the 22.00 from Hereford to London, which has an extended schedule to allow for late-night engineering work on the GWML between Didcot and London.
 
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