GWR Dec 19 timetable

[JonathanH]

Exactly. Most Anglo Scottish services have differing stopping patterns to suit different journey requirements and yet the London to south west services which are more than comparable are getting a clockface type timetable more relevant to shorter hop services to bristol .

No they don't. The timetables on the WCML and ECML for Anglo-Scottish services now follow a standard pattern for almost the whole day and have done for a number of years.

 

[Ianno87]

Not really with the East Coast Anglo Scots, they were standardised in 2011.

Prior to that some of the xx.00 ‘fast’ departures from King’s Cross used to omit Darlington and Berwick. A standard hour timetable was introduced in 2011 and Darlington and Berwick were bought in as standard pattern stops, Darlington being quite a hefty time penalty for calling.

Thus in the same way as is happening in Dec 19 with the WoE expresses a small number of trains got 10 or so minutes slower but the vast majority got quicker.

The semi-fast Anglo Scots have a standard calling pattern except for Northallerton and Alnmouth alternating.

Likewise the West Coast Anglo Scots in 2007 lost the express London to Preston legs on some super express trains with all now calling at Warrington and Wigan.

Please where is this different stopping patterns to meet different journey time requirements? With the exception of one super fast in one direction (a political statement) the Edinburgh fasts are standardised at around 4hr 20 with no variation.

Yes, the WCML Anglo-Scots (xx30 Euston) are incredibly standardised most of the day:
-Wigan
-Warrington
-Preston
-Two of Lancaster/Oxenholme/Penrith
-Carlisle
-Peak calls at Motherwell

The first northbound, and two late southbounds call at Milton Keynes etc for the 'business' market.

Since the 1630 became standard pattern, there has been no 'headline' train. All I suspected that achieved was pushing loading problems onto other trains instead at the key 'business meeting' departure time from Euston for passengers bound for Warrington/Wigan/Lancaster etc.

 

[devonexpress]

How many people actually make journeys like Totnes to Newbury though? Two fairly small places a long way from each other; not many I would suggest is the answer. The timetable should be designed around the majority (i.e. In this case the long distance London journeys), not flows with penny numbers of passengers like that.

The whole idea of a railway is to serve people, it's been doing that for nearly 200 years. The whole idea of turning a train service into a frequent bus service on wheels completely goes against everything that a railway is.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The whole idea of a railway is to serve people, it's been doing that for nearly 200 years. The whole idea of turning a train service into a frequent bus service on wheels completely goes against everything that a railway is.

The railway still does service people. Not all journeys can be catered for by direct trains, it has to be a balance.

The journey in question from Totnes to Newbury is now with the new B&H semi-fast available every 2 hours with a same platform interchange at Taunton. The previous 3+ hour gaps in the B&H local service have gone.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, the WCML Anglo-Scots (xx30 Euston) are incredibly standardised most of the day:
-Wigan
-Warrington
-Preston
-Two of Lancaster/Oxenholme/Penrith
-Carlisle
-Peak calls at Motherwell

The first northbound, and two late southbounds call at Milton Keynes etc for the 'business' market.

Since the 1630 became standard pattern, there has been no 'headline' train. All I suspected that achieved was pushing loading problems onto other trains instead at the key 'business meeting' departure time from Euston for passengers bound for Warrington/Wigan/Lancaster etc.

The West of England is actually the last long distance Intercity route to move to a standard calling pattern timetable, with an hourly fast and 2-hourly semi fast.

This principle has been successfully applied to ECML, WCML and MML long distance (including Anglo Scot) expresses in recent years.

 

[Mag_seven]

Although losing the 10:03 & 12:03 non stop Reading to Exeter services is a big mistake

A couple of additional stops have been added (Taunton and Tiverton for the 10.04 departure and Taunton for the 12.04 departure) with no adverse impact on journey times to Exeter and beyond. I don't understand why that can be regarded as "a big mistake".

 

[JN114]

And the two busiest services of the day being the 10:03 and 12:03 will take an extra 20 minutes, and try to get more passengers onboard already busy trains. It's as if GWR thinks by offering a more standardised timetable, people will spread between services, I might happen for a while, but then we will have the same issue VTXC had.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

On the one hand there is an argument that the faster journey time has encouraged more passengers onto those services. On the other hand you could say the only reason that those calls haven’t been put in in various timetable tweaks and standardisations over the years is because the train is so busy - there’s no point stopping at Taunton because no one will be able to get on there.

At some point you have to take a punt and try and break into that self-fulfilling cycle. There wasn’t a massive exodus and drop in customer satisfaction when Virgin did the equivalent to the Anglo Scots services on the WCML. There weren’t riots and passenger strikes when EMT did it on the MML with the Sheffields and Nottinghams; and I don’t recall the foretold Armageddon when East Coast did it on their Anglo Scot services on the ECML. In fact, in all 3 cases the standardised service and improved connectivity has been widely heralded as a success.

The new timetable is about realising the greatest overall benefit from new trains an infrastructure; not satisfying niche interests. Innovations that yield results and pay for themselves; not innovations for the sake of innovations. It’s regrettable that some journeys won’t be as easy as previous; or see proportionally as much improvement - but as a business why shouldn’t GWR focus on the market that pays its profits?

It’s also not a set in stone thing. There’s a lot of opinions on how this timetable is going to perform - how great or awful it will make people’s journeys. Yet it’s not being introduced for another 4 weeks. How about we give it a shot at actually working first before we shoot it down? If there’s tweaks and improvements to be made then they’ll be considered.

 

[43074]

...The whole idea of turning a train service into a frequent bus service on wheels completely goes against everything that a railway is.

Well that's a concept successfully applied elsewhere since the development of Intercity and Freightliner in the 1960s right through to the Virgin High Frequency timetable on the West Coast in 2008. That's how to make the railway attractive, trying to serve every lamp post in the South West with the main Intercity service from London simply isn't.

 

[Mintona]

I’m really looking forward to how it all fits together in reality, and I really want it to be a success. I’m sure tweaks will be made in the future where necessary.

Quite looking forward to trying out these SuperFast trains. Going to be very strange to begin with. Standing on the platform at Reading with so many train movements will be an impressive sight.

 

[irish_rail]

I’m really looking forward to how it all fits together in reality, and I really want it to be a success. I’m sure tweaks will be made in the future where necessary.

Quite looking forward to trying out these SuperFast trains. Going to be very strange to begin with. Standing on the platform at Reading with so many train movements will be an impressive sight.

Yes there are winners and losers. I'm guessing your bristol based so you are a winner and thus looking forward to zooming along with no stops and all other services kept out of your way. For us deep south west types, a little less to look forward too....

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes there are winners and losers. I'm guessing your bristol based so you are a winner and thus looking forward to zooming along with no stops and all other services kept out of your way. For us deep south west types, a little less to look forward too....

Less to look forward to in the South West, have you looked at the new timetables for anything other than the Pad - Penzance ‘Cornish Riveria’?

- 6 extra trains each way between Plymouth and Penzance to create a full half-hourly service
- Doubling of the local service along the sea wall to provide a half-hourly Exeter to Torbay service.
- 3 extra trains each way between Liskeard and Looe to create a full hourly-service
- 4 additional semi-fast services between London and Exeter to allow West of England expresses to no longer call at smaller B&H stations
- 90 minute gaps between London services filled at Taunton giving a regular hourly London - Taunton - Exeter - Plymouth service with consistent journey times throughout the day akin to East and West Coast Anglo Scots.

That’s hardly anything for the South West!!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Don’t let the truth or facts get in the way of a long-running bloody-minded rant!

 

[tbtc]

Less to look forward to in the South West, have you looked at the new timetables for anything other than the Pad - Penzance ‘Cornish Riveria’?

- 6 extra trains each way between Plymouth and Penzance to create a full half-hourly service
- Doubling of the local service along the sea wall to provide a half-hourly Exeter to Torbay service.
- 3 extra trains each way between Liskeard and Looe to create a full hourly-service
- 4 additional semi-fast services between London and Exeter to allow West of England expresses to no longer call at smaller B&H stations
- 90 minute gaps between London services filled at Taunton giving a regular hourly London - Taunton - Exeter - Plymouth service with consistent journey times throughout the day akin to East and West Coast Anglo Scots.

That’s hardly anything for the South West!!

Don’t let the truth or facts get in the way of a long-running bloody-minded rant!

Agreed - facts and evidence seem to be no match for some bitterness about Bristol!

(personally, I think the new timetable looks a lot better, a lot of winners - the modern railway doesn't have the luxury of sufficient space for a couple of "crack" express services)

 

[Grecian 1998]

Having had a look at the PDFs of the new timetables, a few thoughts on the West timetables:

- The new half-hourly Penzance - Plymouth services should be very useful, not just because of the improved frequency, but the improved journey quality. Previously, local services seemed to be operated by 150s, frequently with 2+3 seating. Using much larger capacity and more comfortable short HSTs will hopefully ensure local passengers are just as likely to use the local services as the long-distance ones,

- The half-hourly Exmouth-Paignton services are very welcome and long overdue. The passenger numbers at Dawlish and Teignmouth are seemed impressive given they often only have one service each way provided by a 150 or 143 during many hours, so a more regular service seems deserved. They are better used during the summer, but there's still plenty of regular users. The use of 2 x 150/2s on most services should also help time-keeping - I've been on many services which lose time purely because of the time taken to load and unload passengers. There's almost a total changeover of passengers at Exeter and at several other stations particularly in the summer, so getting people on and off quickly is a priority. Hopefully with 8 wide doors and more standing room, this should become less of an issue.

- The hourly Barnstaple service also looks a good move, given services southbound in the morning and northbound in the evening are often busy all week. Continuing to send services through to Exeter Central is prudent given the majority of passengers are usually heading to or from Exeter city centre.

- Using short HSTs or class 166s on Cardiff - Taunton appears to have shaved a few minutes off most services. This does also create an oddity in that the Taunton - Bristol stoppers will now frequently have considerably more seating capacity than the express services running on the same route in hours where a class 255 and a class 220 are the respective traction.

- It's nice to see there's now a Saturday 0742 fast service from Bristol to Exeter which connects with the X9 bus to Okehampton and Bude, meaning a day out in North Cornwall from Bristol is now feasible. This may be of no real interest to anyone, but me, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

- I was originally unimpressed with the Heart of Wessex timetable, but looking again it's a mixed bag. Some services have been sped up, a few slowed down further. Unfortunately it's always going to be a low priority, given the need both to run an hourly Bristol-Westbury service, to give Paddington - West of England services a clear run between Westbury and Castle Cary and to give Waterloo-Weymouth services a clear run south of Dorchester. It's a shame the fastest journey time of 2h 15min is still slower than the 2h 11min a stopping service calling at exactly the same stations in 1991 could do, but the network is somewhat busier now and stopping services have to take the paths they're given. It's also disappointing the timetable still has some 3 hour gaps, which isn't going to do much to encourage use. An hourly service would be very tricky with the existing infrastructure between Yeovil and Dorchester, but making sure the maximum gap is 2 hours would seem feasible.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Network Rail and GWR have worked wonders with this new timetable. The improvements are a real step change for the vast majority. Yes there are some minor inconveniences but all for the greater good.

Yes. It won't please everyone but I can see the benefits here.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

What makes you say that?

I was searching GWR on Google to see if any i interesting news came up and it says in this link...
https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http...QqQIIKygAMAk&usg=AOvVaw3dt35EtOL1zFcFLFgffXyQ

 

[devonexpress]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

It’s also not a set in stone thing. There’s a lot of opinions on how this timetable is going to perform - how great or awful it will make people’s journeys. Yet it’s not being introduced for another 4 weeks. How about we give it a shot at actually working first before we shoot it down? If there’s tweaks and improvements to be made then they’ll be considered.

Yet if people had bother to read what I first put down, that the timetable has it's benefits such as half hourly Exmouth to Paignton, more regular Barnstaple trains etc, but also negatives such as the loss of fast Reading to Exeter services, I also said the new timetable will see lots of changes over the next 12 months as things adapt and smooth out. I wish people would actually read properly through here rather than read the last comment and go on a full blown attack at people making a valid point.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yet if people had bother to read what I first put down, that the timetable has it's benefits such as half hourly Exmouth to Paignton, more regular Barnstaple trains etc, but also negatives such as the loss of fast Reading to Exeter services, I also said the new timetable will see lots of changes over the next 12 months as things adapt and smooth out. I wish people would actually read properly through here rather than read the last comment and go on a full blown attack at people making a valid point.

Now the trains have a higher seating capacity the fast Reading to Exeter services were purposely changed to remove the current 90 minutes gaps in service at Taunton bearing in mind Taunton is the 3rd largest settlement in the West Country.

For a place with a population of around 70k a regular hourly fast service to London doesn’t appear to be unreasonable does it?

 

[irish_rail]

Less to look forward to in the South West, have you looked at the new timetables for anything other than the Pad - Penzance ‘Cornish Riveria’?

- 6 extra trains each way between Plymouth and Penzance to create a full half-hourly service
- Doubling of the local service along the sea wall to provide a half-hourly Exeter to Torbay service.
- 3 extra trains each way between Liskeard and Looe to create a full hourly-service
- 4 additional semi-fast services between London and Exeter to allow West of England expresses to no longer call at smaller B&H stations
- 90 minute gaps between London services filled at Taunton giving a regular hourly London - Taunton - Exeter - Plymouth service with consistent journey times throughout the day akin to East and West Coast Anglo Scots.

That’s hardly anything for the South West!!

Oh that's all lovely but it's not what people want! They want fast trains to London that don't take forever and don't turn up as 5 vice 10. Hourly trains to Looe that will run with 5 people on board most of the year and the quarter full 2+4 HSTs that run in Cornwall might be nice but they are not really transforming things for the majority of people.
The south west will continue to be a backward sidewater as long as it's connections to London and the north are so bog standard (at best).

 

[cactustwirly]

I was searching GWR on Google to see if any i interesting news came up and it says in this link...
https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http...QqQIIKygAMAk&usg=AOvVaw3dt35EtOL1zFcFLFgffXyQ

But you said that the Henley branch would be a 3 car turbo? I'm confused at how that relates to a Rail article about 143s?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Oh that's all lovely but it's not what people want! They want fast trains to London that don't take forever and don't turn up as 5 vice 10. Hourly trains to Looe that will run with 5 people on board most of the year and the quarter full 2+4 HSTs that run in Cornwall might be nice but they are not really transforming things for the majority of people.
The south west will continue to be a backward sidewater as long as it's connections to London and the north are so bog standard (at best).

But the very trains from Cornwall to London which you go on about currently taking forever are the very ones being sped up by no longer having to call at Pewsey etc!? Isn’t that what you claim the West is after!!

 

[JN114]

Oh that's all lovely but it's not what people want! They want fast trains to London that don't take forever and don't turn up as 5 vice 10. Hourly trains to Looe that will run with 5 people on board most of the year and the quarter full 2+4 HSTs that run in Cornwall might be nice but they are not really transforming things for the majority of people.
The south west will continue to be a backward sidewater as long as it's connections to London and the north are so bog standard (at best).

They’re getting hourly fast trains to London that are - generally - faster than present (with one or two exceptions).

Put the shoe on the other foot - Why shouldn’t Tiverton and Taunton also benefit from having more; and more evenly spread fast services to London? Are they not West Country enough for you?

 

[father_jack]

I’m really looking forward to how it all fits together in reality, and I really want it to be a success. I’m sure tweaks will be made in the future where necessary.

Quite looking forward to trying out these SuperFast trains. Going to be very strange to begin with. Standing on the platform at Reading with so many train movements will be an impressive sight.

Will some of these "Superfasts" have stop at Reading and turn back though ??? A little birdy tells me former west/now "GWR" drivers being trained at present are only being trained as far as Reading and that contingencies are been prepped.....

 

[Mintona]

Will some of these "Superfasts" have stop at Reading and turn back though ??? A little birdy tells me former west/now "GWR" drivers being trained at present are only being trained as far as Reading and that contingencies are been prepped.....

I’m sure contingencies are being prepared. It would be daft not to. There’s not enough space to terminate lots of trains at Reading from the west.

GWR drivers at Bristol and Gloucester are currently learning as far as Reading, but plenty of HSS drivers are competent to take the fast trains all the way through to London.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

But you said that the Henley branch would be a 3 car turbo? I'm confused at how that relates to a Rail article about 143s?

I forget how I read it but 2 coaches wasn't seemed sufficient for commuters changing at Twyford to and from the London trains so a 3rd coach was added in like early 2018.

I think it's these Turbos that were meant to displace more 15x stock further west that's meant the Class 769 introduction is delayed (I think).

 

[cactustwirly]

I forget how I read it but 2 coaches wasn't seemed sufficient for commuters changing at Twyford to and from the London trains so a 3rd coach was added in like early 2018.

I think it's these Turbos that were meant to displace more 15x stock further west that's meant the Class 769 introduction is delayed (I think).

Nope it's still a 2 car turbo.
The line that needs the 3 cars is the Windsor (which is still a 2 car AFAIK) and Basingstoke services,

 

[JN114]

Nope it's still a 2 car turbo.
The line that needs the 3 cars is the Windsor (which is still a 2 car AFAIK) and Basingstoke services,

Weekdays:-

Greenford 2 (has to be)
Windsor 2
Marlow 2 (has to be)
Peak Bourne Ends 2
Henley 3

Basings are also both 3s

Has been for a couple of years now.

 

[cactustwirly]

Weekdays:-

Greenford 2 (has to be)
Windsor 2
Marlow 2 (has to be)
Peak Bourne Ends 2
Henley 3

Basings are also both 3s

Has been for a couple of years now.

Has alway been a 2 car when I've seen it, very rarely do I see a 3 car.
It's a waste of a 3 car IMO, when it could be used more effectively elsewhere

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The left over 165s in the Thames Valley have divergent configurations. The 2 cars have a branch line feel with the former first class compartment converted for bike accommodation and the disabled toilet giving a side corridor look.

By contrast the 3 car versions on the main line, such that remain, have a regional feel with tables and luggage areas.

 

[DaveHarries]

Having had a look at the PDFs of the new timetables, a few thoughts on the West timetables:

- The new half-hourly Penzance - Plymouth services should be very useful, not just because of the improved frequency, but the improved journey quality. Previously, local services seemed to be operated by 150s, frequently with 2+3 seating. Using much larger capacity and more comfortable short HSTs will hopefully ensure local passengers are just as likely to use the local services as the long-distance ones,

- The half-hourly Exmouth-Paignton services are very welcome and long overdue. The passenger numbers at Dawlish and Teignmouth are seemed impressive given they often only have one service each way provided by a 150 or 143 during many hours, so a more regular service seems deserved. They are better used during the summer, but there's still plenty of regular users. The use of 2 x 150/2s on most services should also help time-keeping - I've been on many services which lose time purely because of the time taken to load and unload passengers. There's almost a total changeover of passengers at Exeter and at several other stations particularly in the summer, so getting people on and off quickly is a priority. Hopefully with 8 wide doors and more standing room, this should become less of an issue.

- The hourly Barnstaple service also looks a good move, given services southbound in the morning and northbound in the evening are often busy all week. Continuing to send services through to Exeter Central is prudent given the majority of passengers are usually heading to or from Exeter city centre.

- Using short HSTs or class 166s on Cardiff - Taunton appears to have shaved a few minutes off most services. This does also create an oddity in that the Taunton - Bristol stoppers will now frequently have considerably more seating capacity than the express services running on the same route in hours where a class 255 and a class 220 are the respective traction.

- It's nice to see there's now a Saturday 0742 fast service from Bristol to Exeter which connects with the X9 bus to Okehampton and Bude, meaning a day out in North Cornwall from Bristol is now feasible. This may be of no real interest to anyone, but me, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

- I was originally unimpressed with the Heart of Wessex timetable, but looking again it's a mixed bag. Some services have been sped up, a few slowed down further. Unfortunately it's always going to be a low priority, given the need both to run an hourly Bristol-Westbury service, to give Paddington - West of England services a clear run between Westbury and Castle Cary and to give Waterloo-Weymouth services a clear run south of Dorchester. It's a shame the fastest journey time of 2h 15min is still slower than the 2h 11min a stopping service calling at exactly the same stations in 1991 could do, but the network is somewhat busier now and stopping services have to take the paths they're given. It's also disappointing the timetable still has some 3 hour gaps, which isn't going to do much to encourage use. An hourly service would be very tricky with the existing infrastructure between Yeovil and Dorchester, but making sure the maximum gap is 2 hours would seem feasible.

Revised timings, with improvements, on the Severn Beach line too. Hourly service on Sundays with almost all of the trains running to / from Severn Beach. Also some changes to Monday to Saturday services in the off-peak. I normally join the 0751 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads (arr. 0832) which is becoming 0747 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads (arr. 0825).

As for the HoW services I have often found in the past that, whenever I have been sent to Weymouth for work, it can be faster to go via. Southampton Central in order to get back to Bristol Temple Meads unless I fancy a wait. If, for example, I got to Weymouth station at 1600 I could get 1W68 (1620 => Southampton Central, arr. 1758) and change to 1F30 (1810 => Bristol Temple Meads, arr. 1948) which gets me in faster, albeit only by 21 minutes if both trains are on schedule.

The new timetable could make going via. Southampton Central to be quicker still if the gap between direct Bristol trains was long enough.

Dave